Mr. Antolini and Holden seem to share the same opinion about D.B and Hollywood. What do they have against it? Think of what Hollywood represents for an 'artist'.
On page 181, “Mr. Antolini said that anybody that could write like D.B. had no business going out to Hollywood. That’s exactly what I said, practically.” Hollywood represents the pursuit of fame and fortune for an ‘artist’. Mr. Antolini and Holden’s objection to Hollywood is that in pursuing this fame and fortune, an artist loses their authenticity. Their definition of a true writer is someone who comes up with their own original stories, like D.B. had written before moving to Hollywood.
Holden states on page 2, “Now he’s out in Hollywood, D.B., being a prostitute. If there’s one thing I hate, it’s the movies.” Readers get the idea that Holden really doesn’t like what the movie industry has done to his brother. Instead of putting his own ideas down on paper, D.B. uses other people’s thoughts to create a movie. D.B. makes the transition from artist to prostitute in Holden’s mind because he is now selling his art for money. This idea is further underlined by the quote on page 1, “He just got a Jaguar…it cost him damn near four thousand bucks. He’s got a lot of dough, now. He didn’t use to.”
I support Ariana’s idea that “Hollywood represents the pursuit of fame and fortune for an artist”. It is the place where dreams come true. More importantly, it is the historical center of cinematography. As stated in Ariana’s post, Holden detests the movies. He thinks they’re phony. Therefore, he thinks Hollywood is phony too. That is the simplest reason why he despises the fact that D.B. is out there screenwriting. He is no longer the “regular writer” that he used to be at home. Instead, he’s a “prostitute” and in agreement with Ariana’s interpretation, it is “because he is now selling his art for money.”
Ariana brings up another important reason why Mr. Antolini and Holden are against D.B.’s move to Hollywood, “Instead of putting his own ideas down on paper, D.B. uses other people’s thoughts to create a movie.” An artist is a person whose creative works demonstrate imagination and exceptional talent. My understanding from what was written on page 181 is that both Mr. Antolini and Holden agree that D.B. possesses raw talent that should be used to write unique stories, such as “The Secret Goldfish” which was mentioned on page 1.
Mr. Antolini and Holden protest to Hollywood because they are afraid that D.B. will be consumed by the phoniness of his surroundings and lose, as Ariana says, his “authenticity.” Holden is especially afraid that his older brother will become one of those hot-shots who drive fancy cars because they’re so rich.
To conclude, I agree with Ariana’s interpretations and reasons regarding D.B. and Hollywood.
What does Hollywood represent? One of two things... First, the place where people come to be found or to find themselves after which they succeed and become famous or fail and go home empty handed. And for those who do get found whether it is by themselves or by someone else, stay conventional and don’t become engrossed in their own fame. Second, the place for talented people to come, who don’t need finding but with time and the ever growing need to fit in they become like everyone else there... superficial, and lose their individuality making there so called art not because they like it or want to but because it’s what the majority enjoy.
On page 181 you read that Mr.Antolini had phoned up D.B. to tell him not to go. He then goes on to say that anybody that can write like D.B. had no business to go to Hollywood. The reason as to why is written right above; Mr.Antolini knew what would happen he wouldn’t stay modest but rather enjoy the spot light. He would change socially and as well with his writing styles, as Mr.Antolini said it is not place for a writer like that... and he was right because you start to write what people want not what you feel.
You have another example on page 2 where Holden says D.B. is out in Hollywood being a prostitute. Which referrers again to him as a writer because he is being exploited by different entertainment companies for money as a real prostitute is... the last example being when D.B.’s new car is brought up, a Jaguar a car that has always had a proper heritage and is a strong status symbol, which again is him trying to fit in to the new society.
So in essence the opinion shared by Mr.Antolini and Holden about Hollywood and D.B. are almost identical, they didn’t want him to go there because they understood what the city does to a person, how it changes them. This is what happened to D.B.
(Sorry for using the same quotations as previously used... despite the fact there were more references in the book. I found that these were best to get my point across and make the best connections.)
When it comes to artists, Hollywood represents fame, riches and recognition of talent. On p.181 of the novel, Mr. Antolini states ‘anybody that could write like D. B had no business going out to Hollywood’. By saying this, he means that truly talented writers don’t need to go to Hollywood to become famous and be declared talented. Holden also thinks Hollywood changes the style and natural way D. B. writes. The author states this through the quote ‘ What’s D.B. know about Annapolis, for God’s sake? What’s that got to do with the kind of stories he writes?(...)Boy, that stuff drives me crazy. That goddam Hollywood.’ ( p.164) Holden thinks D.B. is changing his way of writing, just to earn money and fame. He thinks this is all the effects of D.B. going to Hollywood. -Shobbia R
Response #3 (My 6th comment in total!) To Ariana and Kaitlen
I agree with everything Ariana and Kaitlen stated in their comments and that “Hollywood represents the pursuit of fame and fortune for an artist”. I would like to add that Holden’s views and opinions about his brother working in Hollywood reminds me of his views and opinions about his father’s career as a lawyer, which identifies Holden’ views about his brother’s career.
Holden thinks his brother has become a prostitute because, as Ariana had stated, “He is now selling his art for money.” This brings me to think that Holden thinks his brother is now writing for Hollywood because he is getting paid to do so. This relates to what Holden thinks of his father’s job. He says lawyers are fine if they are constantly helping people, but that’s not what they actually do, and that they do this for the money. (p.172)
The conclusion that I have made from this is that Holden has a problem with doing something you are passionate about for money. When Holden tells Phoebe that he would like to save children (p. 173), he had no concern about how much money he would be making; thus, he would not be prostituting himself.
According to one definition in Urban Dictionary, Hollywood is defined as an adjective in which it describes "the change in behaviour of someone who has "made it" or think they have "made it," particularly in entertainment. Usually consisting of a poor attitude towards old things that one used to enjoy, acting conceited, spending lavish amounts of money, trading in old friends for new friends that are part of that scene, etc. " Of course, this isn't a legitimate definition seeing as this is an online dictionary written by people with no academic achievements in the field but it still portrays one's opinion on the matter which can be applied and related to the thoughts of Mr. Antolini and Holden about Hollywood.
Both characters think D.B. has exceptional talent in writing and both enjoy his work. However, when Hollywood gets into the picture, instead of supporting D.B. with this opportunity of being rich and famous, they discourage him to pursue this path. For an artist, Hollywood is the land of opportunity to be discovered and showered with riches. It’s thought to be where dreams come true and everything anyone’s ever wanted is given to them. Yet, *JCB* (The online user that wrote the definition of “Hollywood”) made it clear that Hollywood is but a place of corruption, an opinion that both Mr. Antolini and Holden can both agree and vouch for.
Holden states in the novel on page 2 that D.B. is now in Hollywood being a prostitute…figuratively, of course. He feels that D.B.’s talents are being used and sold for money, which could be thought of as--in a sense--an ill use of something special. Mr. Antolini concurs with this statement on page 181 when he mentions that “anybody that could write like D.B. had no business going out to Hollywood.” A prostitute sells her body to make money, D.B., on the other hand, is selling his talent for money in a much larger scale market. He used to write books with little fame (This point can be proven when Holden tells us that D.B. was the author of “The Secret Goldfish”, “in case you never heard of him”. If D.B. WERE famous, he wouldn’t have to say “in case you never heard of him” seeing as he’d be well known and wouldn’t have to be clarified as to who he is) and now he’s in pursuit of more fame which lead to some fortune which has changed a few things, an example of what was just mentioned is located on page 1: “He’s got a lot of dough, now. He didn’t use to. He used to be just a regular writer, when he was home.” Used to. Past Tense. *JCB* also mentions in their definition that someone that is “Hollywood” tends to spend a “lavish amount of money”...sounds like something D.B. did which was also mentioned on page 1 of the novel: “He just got a Jaguar. One of those little English jobs that can do around two hundred miles an hour. It cost him damn near four thousand bucks.”
Both Mr. Antolini and Holden believe that Hollywood isn’t a place for D.B.’s extraordinary writing talents seeing as it is being exploited and sold.
I agree with Shobbia’s thoughts that Hollywood represents fame, riches and recognition of talent. Hollywood is considered by many for a long time to be the pinnacle of success, by being discovered by Hollywood or going to work in Hollywood is thought of as becoming famous and successful. However going to Hollywood to work can also be seen as selling out. I believe Shobbia came to a thoughtful conclusion when she stated that Holden “thinks D.B. is changing his way of writing, just to earn money and fame.” D.B.’s old style of writing, short stories has changed to writing for big movies. On page 2, Holden says that D.B. is in Hollywood, being a “prostitute”, by this Holden means D.B. is selling is writing talents to Hollywood to make money and gain fame, Holden’s discontent for this can be shown when Holden says “Boy, that stuff drives me crazy. That goddam Hollywood.” (p.g. 164) Both Holden and Mr. Antolini think that D.B. should not be in Hollywood, stating that someone with his talent shouldn’t be in Hollywood. Overall I think that Shobbia has made many solid points and has done a terrific job in this post.
THIS IS A ZAINAB POST, HER COMPUTER IS CURRENTLY NOT FUNCTIONING. :) (WINK WINK, I SHOULD GET EXTRA POINTS RIGHT?)
Post #5, Response #3 Response to Ariana.
I disagree with Ariana's statement: "Mr. Antolini and Holden’s objection to Hollywood is that in pursuing this fame and fortune, an artist loses their authenticity." From the very beginning, we know that D.B. has already published work like The Secret Goldfish (mentioned on page 1). On page 180, Holden says "They both read all D.B.'s stories.", which means D.B. was already in pursuit of fame and fortune, and selling his art for money. And thus, had already lost his 'authenticity', and consequently, would be a 'prostitute'. Yet Holden did not seem to have a problem with that at all.
It could be because Hollywood is a 'dog eat dog' type of world. Perhaps they thought he wouldn't last long in the entertainment business, and thought the fame would corrupt him. While watching The Lunts at the Theater with Sally, Holden mentions: "If you do something too good, then after a while, if you don't watch it, you start showing off. And then you're not as good anymore.", this could be referring to D.B., who (we get the impression) is an extremely good writer: "Mr.Antolini said that anybody that could write like D.B. had no business going out to Hollywood." Perhaps Holden thought that D.B. would become phony.
When Holden says "Now he’s out in Hollywood, D.B., being a prostitute.", I took it quite literally. It's not rare in Hollywood for people to sleep with each other in order to have special 'benefits'. To get a special promotion, or be the lead role in a certain movie.
I concur with Rabaya when she says that "Holden has a problem with doing something you are passionate about for money." Because, as he mentions on p.172: "How would you know you weren't being a phony? The trouble is, you wouldn't."
Post 3 There is obviously more between Mr. Antolini and Holden that meets the eye. (wink wink) But more importantly they both shared the same opinion about D.B and Hollywood. They did not want him to go because artists are known for their originality. Hollywood basically strip one of their uniqueness and they become blind people who would do anything for money and fame. D.B did write some great stories that Holden liked but having a few family members won't bring anyone business. In D.B's point of view Hollywood would be the best way to become successful. Maybe Mr. Antolini and Holden both disagree because they know most of the time being famous and being wealthy leads to corruption. People lose sight of what their original goal used to be. People in Hollywood want to please the crowd to gain more popularity therefore they sink lower and lower. Changing according to Holden, into a prostitute who sell their work of art for money. -Christopher Wong
Chris brings up important explanations concerning Mr. Antolini’s and Holden’s mutual opinion about Hollywood. The notion of Hollywood represents fame and success for an artist. Mr. Antolini never agreed with D.B’s decision to move to Hollywood and thought that a man with that amount of talent had no reason to go there in the first place. As well, Holden did not approve either, simply because it is phony (and he hates the movies).
I agree with Chris when he says that Hollywood can take away a writer’s individuality and uniqueness because Hollywood and the fame it introduces, distorts their goals and visions. They stop thinking about, for example, writing great stories or trying to make a difference in someone’s life, and become the type of people that would do anything for money and to please the media. Holden realizes that Hollywood has changed D.B. and the way that D.B. writes, proven when he states: “He USED to be just a regular writer, when he was home.” (p.1) Holden recognizes that D.B is selling his art for money, like a prostitute.
POST #1 QUESTION #11
ReplyDeleteOn page 181, “Mr. Antolini said that anybody that could write like D.B. had no business going out to Hollywood. That’s exactly what I said, practically.” Hollywood represents the pursuit of fame and fortune for an ‘artist’. Mr. Antolini and Holden’s objection to Hollywood is that in pursuing this fame and fortune, an artist loses their authenticity. Their definition of a true writer is someone who comes up with their own original stories, like D.B. had written before moving to Hollywood.
Holden states on page 2, “Now he’s out in Hollywood, D.B., being a prostitute. If there’s one thing I hate, it’s the movies.” Readers get the idea that Holden really doesn’t like what the movie industry has done to his brother. Instead of putting his own ideas down on paper, D.B. uses other people’s thoughts to create a movie. D.B. makes the transition from artist to prostitute in Holden’s mind because he is now selling his art for money. This idea is further underlined by the quote on page 1, “He just got a Jaguar…it cost him damn near four thousand bucks. He’s got a lot of dough, now. He didn’t use to.”
-Ariana
Response #2 to Ariana’s Post:
ReplyDeleteI support Ariana’s idea that “Hollywood represents the pursuit of fame and fortune for an artist”. It is the place where dreams come true. More importantly, it is the historical center of cinematography. As stated in Ariana’s post, Holden detests the movies. He thinks they’re phony. Therefore, he thinks Hollywood is phony too. That is the simplest reason why he despises the fact that D.B. is out there screenwriting. He is no longer the “regular writer” that he used to be at home. Instead, he’s a “prostitute” and in agreement with Ariana’s interpretation, it is “because he is now selling his art for money.”
Ariana brings up another important reason why Mr. Antolini and Holden are against D.B.’s move to Hollywood, “Instead of putting his own ideas down on paper, D.B. uses other people’s thoughts to create a movie.” An artist is a person whose creative works demonstrate imagination and exceptional talent. My understanding from what was written on page 181 is that both Mr. Antolini and Holden agree that D.B. possesses raw talent that should be used to write unique stories, such as “The Secret Goldfish” which was mentioned on page 1.
Mr. Antolini and Holden protest to Hollywood because they are afraid that D.B. will be consumed by the phoniness of his surroundings and lose, as Ariana says, his “authenticity.” Holden is especially afraid that his older brother will become one of those hot-shots who drive fancy cars because they’re so rich.
To conclude, I agree with Ariana’s interpretations and reasons regarding D.B. and Hollywood.
Post #2 Question #11
ReplyDeleteWhat does Hollywood represent? One of two things... First, the place where people come to be found or to find themselves after which they succeed and become famous or fail and go home empty handed. And for those who do get found whether it is by themselves or by someone else, stay conventional and don’t become engrossed in their own fame. Second, the place for talented people to come, who don’t need finding but with time and the ever growing need to fit in they become like everyone else there... superficial, and lose their individuality making there so called art not because they like it or want to but because it’s what the majority enjoy.
On page 181 you read that Mr.Antolini had phoned up D.B. to tell him not to go. He then goes on to say that anybody that can write like D.B. had no business to go to Hollywood. The reason as to why is written right above; Mr.Antolini knew what would happen he wouldn’t stay modest but rather enjoy the spot light. He would change socially and as well with his writing styles, as Mr.Antolini said it is not place for a writer like that... and he was right because you start to write what people want not what you feel.
You have another example on page 2 where Holden says D.B. is out in Hollywood being a prostitute. Which referrers again to him as a writer because he is being exploited by different entertainment companies for money as a real prostitute is... the last example being when D.B.’s new car is brought up, a Jaguar a car that has always had a proper heritage and is a strong status symbol, which again is him trying to fit in to the new society.
So in essence the opinion shared by Mr.Antolini and Holden about Hollywood and D.B. are almost identical, they didn’t want him to go there because they understood what the city does to a person, how it changes them. This is what happened to D.B.
(Sorry for using the same quotations as previously used... despite the fact there were more references in the book. I found that these were best to get my point across and make the best connections.)
~Justin
Post #2 Question #11
ReplyDeleteWhen it comes to artists, Hollywood represents fame, riches and recognition of talent. On p.181 of the novel, Mr. Antolini states ‘anybody that could write like D. B had no business going out to Hollywood’. By saying this, he means that truly talented writers don’t need to go to Hollywood to become famous and be declared talented. Holden also thinks Hollywood changes the style and natural way D. B. writes. The author states this through the quote ‘ What’s D.B. know about Annapolis, for God’s sake? What’s that got to do with the kind of stories he writes?(...)Boy, that stuff drives me crazy. That goddam Hollywood.’ ( p.164) Holden thinks D.B. is changing his way of writing, just to earn money and fame. He thinks this is all the effects of D.B. going to Hollywood.
-Shobbia R
Response #3 (My 6th comment in total!)
ReplyDeleteTo Ariana and Kaitlen
I agree with everything Ariana and Kaitlen stated in their comments and that “Hollywood represents the pursuit of fame and fortune for an artist”. I would like to add that Holden’s views and opinions about his brother working in Hollywood reminds me of his views and opinions about his father’s career as a lawyer, which identifies Holden’ views about his brother’s career.
Holden thinks his brother has become a prostitute because, as Ariana had stated, “He is now selling his art for money.” This brings me to think that Holden thinks his brother is now writing for Hollywood because he is getting paid to do so. This relates to what Holden thinks of his father’s job. He says lawyers are fine if they are constantly helping people, but that’s not what they actually do, and that they do this for the money. (p.172)
The conclusion that I have made from this is that Holden has a problem with doing something you are passionate about for money. When Holden tells Phoebe that he would like to save children (p. 173), he had no concern about how much money he would be making; thus, he would not be prostituting himself.
Post #2 Question #11
ReplyDeleteAccording to one definition in Urban Dictionary, Hollywood is defined as an adjective in which it describes "the change in behaviour of someone who has "made it" or think they have "made it," particularly in entertainment. Usually consisting of a poor attitude towards old things that one used to enjoy, acting conceited, spending lavish amounts of money, trading in old friends for new friends that are part of that scene, etc. " Of course, this isn't a legitimate definition seeing as this is an online dictionary written by people with no academic achievements in the field but it still portrays one's opinion on the matter which can be applied and related to the thoughts of Mr. Antolini and Holden about Hollywood.
Both characters think D.B. has exceptional talent in writing and both enjoy his work. However, when Hollywood gets into the picture, instead of supporting D.B. with this opportunity of being rich and famous, they discourage him to pursue this path. For an artist, Hollywood is the land of opportunity to be discovered and showered with riches. It’s thought to be where dreams come true and everything anyone’s ever wanted is given to them. Yet, *JCB* (The online user that wrote the definition of “Hollywood”) made it clear that Hollywood is but a place of corruption, an opinion that both Mr. Antolini and Holden can both agree and vouch for.
Holden states in the novel on page 2 that D.B. is now in Hollywood being a prostitute…figuratively, of course. He feels that D.B.’s talents are being used and sold for money, which could be thought of as--in a sense--an ill use of something special. Mr. Antolini concurs with this statement on page 181 when he mentions that “anybody that could write like D.B. had no business going out to Hollywood.” A prostitute sells her body to make money, D.B., on the other hand, is selling his talent for money in a much larger scale market. He used to write books with little fame (This point can be proven when Holden tells us that D.B. was the author of “The Secret Goldfish”, “in case you never heard of him”. If D.B. WERE famous, he wouldn’t have to say “in case you never heard of him” seeing as he’d be well known and wouldn’t have to be clarified as to who he is) and now he’s in pursuit of more fame which lead to some fortune which has changed a few things, an example of what was just mentioned is located on page 1: “He’s got a lot of dough, now. He didn’t use to. He used to be just a regular writer, when he was home.” Used to. Past Tense. *JCB* also mentions in their definition that someone that is “Hollywood” tends to spend a “lavish amount of money”...sounds like something D.B. did which was also mentioned on page 1 of the novel: “He just got a Jaguar. One of those little English jobs that can do around two hundred miles an hour. It cost him damn near four thousand bucks.”
Both Mr. Antolini and Holden believe that Hollywood isn’t a place for D.B.’s extraordinary writing talents seeing as it is being exploited and sold.
Response #2 to Shobbia’s Post Question #11
ReplyDeleteI agree with Shobbia’s thoughts that Hollywood represents fame, riches and recognition of talent. Hollywood is considered by many for a long time to be the pinnacle of success, by being discovered by Hollywood or going to work in Hollywood is thought of as becoming famous and successful. However going to Hollywood to work can also be seen as selling out. I believe Shobbia came to a thoughtful conclusion when she stated that Holden “thinks D.B. is changing his way of writing, just to earn money and fame.” D.B.’s old style of writing, short stories has changed to writing for big movies.
On page 2, Holden says that D.B. is in Hollywood, being a “prostitute”, by this Holden means D.B. is selling is writing talents to Hollywood to make money and gain fame, Holden’s discontent for this can be shown when Holden says “Boy, that stuff drives me crazy. That goddam Hollywood.” (p.g. 164)
Both Holden and Mr. Antolini think that D.B. should not be in Hollywood, stating that someone with his talent shouldn’t be in Hollywood. Overall I think that Shobbia has made many solid points and has done a terrific job in this post.
- Kurt Lo
THIS IS A ZAINAB POST, HER COMPUTER IS CURRENTLY NOT FUNCTIONING. :) (WINK WINK, I SHOULD GET EXTRA POINTS RIGHT?)
ReplyDeletePost #5, Response #3
Response to Ariana.
I disagree with Ariana's statement: "Mr. Antolini and Holden’s objection to Hollywood is that in pursuing this fame and fortune, an artist loses their authenticity."
From the very beginning, we know that D.B. has already published work like The Secret Goldfish (mentioned on page 1). On page 180, Holden says "They both read all D.B.'s stories.", which means D.B. was already in pursuit of fame and fortune, and selling his art for money. And thus, had already lost his 'authenticity', and consequently, would be a 'prostitute'. Yet Holden did not seem to have a problem with that at all.
It could be because Hollywood is a 'dog eat dog' type of world. Perhaps they thought he wouldn't last long in the entertainment business, and thought the fame would corrupt him. While watching The Lunts at the Theater with Sally, Holden mentions: "If you do something too good, then after a while, if you don't watch it, you start showing off. And then you're not as good anymore.", this could be referring to D.B., who (we get the impression) is an extremely good writer: "Mr.Antolini said that anybody that could write like D.B. had no business going out to Hollywood." Perhaps Holden thought that D.B. would become phony.
When Holden says "Now he’s out in Hollywood, D.B., being a prostitute.", I took it quite literally. It's not rare in Hollywood for people to sleep with each other in order to have special 'benefits'. To get a special promotion, or be the lead role in a certain movie.
I concur with Rabaya when she says that "Holden has a problem with doing something you are passionate about for money." Because, as he mentions on p.172: "How would you know you weren't being a phony? The trouble is, you wouldn't."
Post 3
ReplyDeleteThere is obviously more between Mr. Antolini and Holden that meets the eye. (wink wink) But more importantly they both shared the same opinion about D.B and Hollywood. They did not want him to go because artists are known for their originality. Hollywood basically strip one of their uniqueness and they become blind people who would do anything for money and fame. D.B did write some great stories that Holden liked but having a few family members won't bring anyone business. In D.B's point of view Hollywood would be the best way to become successful. Maybe Mr. Antolini and Holden both disagree because they know most of the time being famous and being wealthy leads to corruption. People lose sight of what their original goal used to be. People in Hollywood want to please the crowd to gain more popularity therefore they sink lower and lower. Changing according to Holden, into a prostitute who sell their work of art for money.
-Christopher Wong
Response#2 to Christopher’s post
ReplyDeleteChris brings up important explanations concerning Mr. Antolini’s and Holden’s mutual opinion about Hollywood. The notion of Hollywood represents fame and success for an artist. Mr. Antolini never agreed with D.B’s decision to move to Hollywood and thought that a man with that amount of talent had no reason to go there in the first place. As well, Holden did not approve either, simply because it is phony (and he hates the movies).
I agree with Chris when he says that Hollywood can take away a writer’s individuality and uniqueness because Hollywood and the fame it introduces, distorts their goals and visions. They stop thinking about, for example, writing great stories or trying to make a difference in someone’s life, and become the type of people that would do anything for money and to please the media. Holden realizes that Hollywood has changed D.B. and the way that D.B. writes, proven when he states: “He USED to be just a regular writer, when he was home.” (p.1) Holden recognizes that D.B is selling his art for money, like a prostitute.