A number of interesting things are unveiled during Holden’s conversation with his old student adviser, Luce. Holden’s immaturity, unexpected awkwardness and sexual experience (or lack thereof), turns what is supposed to be a casual conversation, into a sexual interview of some sort. Luce, on the other hand, is practically Holden’s polar opposite. He is mature, “knew quite a bit about sex” (p.143) and “was a pretty intelligent guy.”(p.143)
Holden likes to dive into matters headfirst and shows the utmost curiosity about people’s sexual encounters. This is demonstrated by the fact that his first question to Luce was “How’s your sex life?”(p.144) and also by an earlier scene where he kept nagging Stradlater about whether or not he “gave Jane the time in Ed Banky’s goddam car” (p.43), and getting in a fight about it. Further into his conversation with Luce, he kept on asking him about his current relationship and even admitted he was “getting a little too personal.”(p.147) He also seems to think sex is the deciding factor in relationships, as illustrated by him asking if the reason Luce liked older women because they were “better for sex and all” (p.147) and if the eastern philosophy that Luce much preferred to the western counterpart had to do with “sex and all.”(p.146)
After getting past young Caulfield’s lack of open-mindedness and along with it, lack of giving people “the time”, we see glimpses of maturity and moral righteousness. When asked if he was still “going around with that same babe he used to at Whooton” (p.144), Luce responded vulgarly, stating that “she’s probably the Whore of New Hampshire by this time.”(p.145) Holden then defended the lady in question by telling Luce “that isn’t nice” and that “if she was decent enough to let you get sexy with her all the time, you at least shouldn’t talk about her that way.”(p.145) Contrasting this maturity, however, is the fact that Holden called Luce a “pain in the ass” (p.149) because he had to leave. Earlier he had a similar reaction with Sally, to whom he directly said “You give me a royal pain in the ass” (p.133) when she refused to run away with Holden.
Another example of Holden's moral righteousness and perhaps innocence can be seen on pages 61 and 62 as he witnesses a handful of crude acts from a window in his hotel room. He sees a middle-aged man sporting "real women's clothing-silk stockings, high-heeled shoes, brassiere, and one of those corsets..." (61) and cannot help but be appalled. Holden then looks through another window and spots a young woman and a man spitting water at each other. The sight of those people leads Holden to say "...the hotel was lousy with perverts."(62)
A bit lower on the page Holden admits that even though he found the spitting "fascinating to watch" (62) he disliked "the idea" (62). He explains his sentiment when he says "...if you don't really like a girl, you shouldn't horse around with her and all... you ought to be careful about doing crumby stuff to it (her face), like squirting water all over it." (62) Holden believes that women should be treated a certain way, even though he may not fully respect them, or anyone, for that matter. This disrespect is linked to Holden's hatred for phonies, which at times in the book seems to be a word synonymous to adults who are of course, men and women. Holden's feelings on the treatment of women can be backed up with what the Chief mentioned in his previous post, where he quotes Holden's feelings on how Luce spoke about "The Whore of New Hampshire": “if she was decent enough to let you get sexy with her all the time, you at least shouldn’t talk about her that way.”(p.145)
Throughout the novel Holden proves again and again that he doesn't understand sex: "Sex is something I just don't understand." (63) "I'm a virgin." (92) so it's logical that he would have so many questions to ask Luce in his "sexual interview" (Chief Akif, Post #2 Question #5).
Mohammed more or less oriented his answer around how Holden is extremely interested (bordeline obsessed!) with sexual intercourse. Luce, who seems to be ordinary and "normal" like the rest of us (unlike Holden)is quite repulsed by Holden's constant immature, personal questions and leaves him hanging. That conversation really portrayed how immature and childish Holden's mind really is with the constant sex fascinations.
I believe Mohammed made an important comparison between Holden and Carl Luce’s perspectives concerning sex. The conversation between Holden and Luce in chapter 19 offers the reader a chance to the differences between Holden and an “average” person regarding sex. Holden is shown to be very immature on the subject while Luce is more mature. I think Mohammed made a valid point saying that Luce was Holden’s polar opposite, being “a pretty intelligent guy.”(p.143) and knowing “quite a bit about sex” (p.143). I think the Chief made an interesting connection when he pointed out the glimpses of maturity and moral righteousness in Holden, especially how when Luce responded to a previous question regarding a girl by saying “she’s probably the Whore of New Hampshire by this time.”(p.145) with Holden then defending her by telling Luce “that isn’t nice” and that “if she was decent enough to let you get sexy with her all the time, you at least shouldn’t talk about her that way.”(p.145) ‘ I believe Mohammed outlined several valid and important points in his post.
I completely agree with Patricia, if I had to answer that question the answers would be almost identical. I feel that Holden is not so much immature with his questions, though it might seem this way he is more innocent and I doubt I will be able to find any more quotes to back it up. But think about it he has no older male sibling in his life or at least ones that he interacts with nor does he have any proper friends so the spectrum of people with whom to can discuss sexuality is very limited. Now despite the fact he might have been a bit to inclined to hear some of Luce’s personal information, his curiosity over took him and perhaps he felt he was “learning” vicariously through Luce.
Response 3 to Mohammed Mohammed did mention many characteristics of Holden and I agree with them but I have to add in that we also learned quite a bit about Old Luce too. In that very awkward conversation we learn that Luce matured and changed from when he was younger. Luce is now into the sophisticated and mature way while long ago he was the center of attention to all sex talks. We also learn that Luce is very defensive when it comes to his own life but he always gives just a little bit of information which leaves Holden asking question like mad. -Christopher Wong
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletePost #2 Question #5
ReplyDeleteA number of interesting things are unveiled during Holden’s conversation with his old student adviser, Luce. Holden’s immaturity, unexpected awkwardness and sexual experience (or lack thereof), turns what is supposed to be a casual conversation, into a sexual interview of some sort. Luce, on the other hand, is practically Holden’s polar opposite. He is mature, “knew quite a bit about sex” (p.143) and “was a pretty intelligent guy.”(p.143)
Holden likes to dive into matters headfirst and shows the utmost curiosity about people’s sexual encounters. This is demonstrated by the fact that his first question to Luce was “How’s your sex life?”(p.144) and also by an earlier scene where he kept nagging Stradlater about whether or not he “gave Jane the time in Ed Banky’s goddam car” (p.43), and getting in a fight about it. Further into his conversation with Luce, he kept on asking him about his current relationship and even admitted he was “getting a little too personal.”(p.147) He also seems to think sex is the deciding factor in relationships, as illustrated by him asking if the reason Luce liked older women because they were “better for sex and all” (p.147) and if the eastern philosophy that Luce much preferred to the western counterpart had to do with “sex and all.”(p.146)
After getting past young Caulfield’s lack of open-mindedness and along with it, lack of giving people “the time”, we see glimpses of maturity and moral righteousness. When asked if he was still “going around with that same babe he used to at Whooton” (p.144), Luce responded vulgarly, stating that “she’s probably the Whore of New Hampshire by this time.”(p.145) Holden then defended the lady in question by telling Luce “that isn’t nice” and that “if she was decent enough to let you get sexy with her all the time, you at least shouldn’t talk about her that way.”(p.145) Contrasting this maturity, however, is the fact that Holden called Luce a “pain in the ass” (p.149) because he had to leave. Earlier he had a similar reaction with Sally, to whom he directly said “You give me a royal pain in the ass” (p.133) when she refused to run away with Holden.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteRESPONSE #1 to Mohammed Akif's post
ReplyDeleteAnother example of Holden's moral righteousness and perhaps innocence can be seen on pages 61 and 62 as he witnesses a handful of crude acts from a window in his hotel room. He sees a middle-aged man sporting "real women's clothing-silk stockings, high-heeled shoes, brassiere, and one of those corsets..." (61) and cannot help but be appalled. Holden then looks through another window and spots a young woman and a man spitting water at each other. The sight of those people leads Holden to say "...the hotel was lousy with perverts."(62)
A bit lower on the page Holden admits that even though he found the spitting "fascinating to watch" (62) he disliked "the idea" (62). He explains his sentiment when he says "...if you don't really like a girl, you shouldn't horse around with her and all... you ought to be careful about doing crumby stuff to it (her face), like squirting water all over it." (62) Holden believes that women should be treated a certain way, even though he may not fully respect them, or anyone, for that matter. This disrespect is linked to Holden's hatred for phonies, which at times in the book seems to be a word synonymous to adults who are of course, men and women. Holden's feelings on the treatment of women can be backed up with what the Chief mentioned in his previous post, where he quotes Holden's feelings on how Luce spoke about "The Whore of New Hampshire": “if she was decent enough to let you get sexy with her all the time, you at least shouldn’t talk about her that way.”(p.145)
Throughout the novel Holden proves again and again that he doesn't understand sex: "Sex is something I just don't understand." (63) "I'm a virgin." (92) so it's logical that he would have so many questions to ask Luce in his "sexual interview" (Chief Akif, Post #2 Question #5).
-Patricia
Response #3 to none other than Akif the Chief...
ReplyDeleteMohammed more or less oriented his answer around how Holden is extremely interested (bordeline obsessed!) with sexual intercourse. Luce, who seems to be ordinary and "normal" like the rest of us (unlike Holden)is quite repulsed by Holden's constant immature, personal questions and leaves him hanging. That conversation really portrayed how immature and childish Holden's mind really is with the constant sex fascinations.
I fully agree with Mohammed's response.
-Nikki Marcolefas
Response #3 to Chief Akif Post Question #5
ReplyDeleteI believe Mohammed made an important comparison between Holden and Carl Luce’s perspectives concerning sex. The conversation between Holden and Luce in chapter 19 offers the reader a chance to the differences between Holden and an “average” person regarding sex. Holden is shown to be very immature on the subject while Luce is more mature. I think Mohammed made a valid point saying that Luce was Holden’s polar opposite, being “a pretty intelligent guy.”(p.143) and knowing “quite a bit about sex” (p.143).
I think the Chief made an interesting connection when he pointed out the glimpses of maturity and moral righteousness in Holden, especially how when Luce responded to a previous question regarding a girl by saying “she’s probably the Whore of New Hampshire by this time.”(p.145) with Holden then defending her by telling Luce “that isn’t nice” and that “if she was decent enough to let you get sexy with her all the time, you at least shouldn’t talk about her that way.”(p.145) ‘
I believe Mohammed outlined several valid and important points in his post.
- Kurt Lo
Response #1 to Patrica's post Question #5
ReplyDeleteI completely agree with Patricia, if I had to answer that question the answers would be almost identical. I feel that Holden is not so much immature with his questions, though it might seem this way he is more innocent and I doubt I will be able to find any more quotes to back it up. But think about it he has no older male sibling in his life or at least ones that he interacts with nor does he have any proper friends so the spectrum of people with whom to can discuss sexuality is very limited. Now despite the fact he might have been a bit to inclined to hear some of Luce’s personal information, his curiosity over took him and perhaps he felt he was “learning” vicariously through Luce.
~Justin
Response 3 to Mohammed
ReplyDeleteMohammed did mention many characteristics of Holden and I agree with them but I have to add in that we also learned quite a bit about Old Luce too. In that very awkward conversation we learn that Luce matured and changed from when he was younger. Luce is now into the sophisticated and mature way while long ago he was the center of attention to all sex talks. We also learn that Luce is very defensive when it comes to his own life but he always gives just a little bit of information which leaves Holden asking question like mad.
-Christopher Wong