In chapter 13, Holden makes up an entire scenario about his gloves, then at the beginning of chapter 14, he speaks to his deceased brother Allie. In your opinion, why does Holden do this? Make reference to the text in your answer.
Post#1: Question#1 I think Holden does this, because he doesn’t seem to be able to forget about the things he loses. For example, the pair of gloves he had lost were gone for good, yet he wanted to know who had stolen them, and imagined a scenario that might have occurred if he had caught the thief. Similarily in chapter 14, when he talks to his brother Allie, he mentions the fact that he often says ‘Okay. Go home and get your bike and meet me in front of Bobby’s house...’ He had once avoided taking Allie with Bobby and him on a trip to Lake Sedebego, since he identified Allie as too young. After Allie had departed his life, Holden feels blameworthy for failing to fulfill Allie’s hope. Although it had only occurred just once, everytime he feels depressed, he attempts to change the thought of his blameworthy, by reliving that situation through imagination- this time the way he would have wanted it to be.
POST #2: QUESTION #4 At the beginning of Chapter 13, while Holden is walking back to his hotel, he wishes he had his gloves with him to keep his hands warm. His gloves were stolen while he was at Pencey, and Holden expresses that he would like to know who took them, although he acknowledges that he probably wouldn’t have done much if he did know who took them because he is one of the ‘very yellow guys.’ Holden goes on to construct a scenario in which he depicts what he would have done if he had the courage to apprehend the culprit, and even then, he still does not have the guts to directly accuse the person. Later on, in Chapter 14, Holden reminisces about a time when Allie was still alive and how one day Holden refused to take Allie along with him and Bobby Fallon on a ‘hunting’ trip with BB guns because Allie was child. Holden states that on days when he feels very depressed, he revisits the memory and attempts to change it by telling Allie that he is allowed to come with him and Bobby. Holden does this because of a previous experience also involving Allie. When Allie died, Holden lost someone he cherished and because of that, Holden has issues or difficulties letting go of things that have been taken away from him, such as his gloves and his younger brother. His inability to let go or feel closure (in the case of his brother) results in Holden feeling very depressed. When Holden gets depressed, he tries to revisit the past to change it to his liking. This also occurs in cases where a particular scene does not go the way Holden would have wanted it, so he tries to reconstruct it, this time making him the ‘hero’. In the scenario with the gloves, he became the guy who stands up for himself. As for the scenario with Allie, Holden feels guilty that he deprived Allie of fun for no reason, so he makes himself the wonderful older brother. Another instance in which Holden is depressed in is after Maurice and Sunny leave his hotel suite at the end of chapter 14. He says, “But I’m crazy. I swear to God I am. About halfway to the bathroom, I sort of started pretending I had a bullet in my gut. Old Maurice had plugged me.” He creates an imaginary alternate ending to his encounter with Maurice, this time instead of being the humiliated and crying little boy, he gets to be wounded but brave hero who gets revenge on Maurice by shooting him ‘through his fat hairy belly’ and getting Jane to come and hold his cigarette for him as he smoked. Whenever Holden feels depressed about a certain memory, he would rather revisit it to change the past than live with the pain or guilt because he is unable to deal with the emotions that surface with these recollections. He does this because although he cannot change the present or alter the future, it doesn’t mean that he won’t manipulate the past... at least in his memories. - Faria
Faria's theory that Holden tends to shape his memories to make himself a hero so that he can feel better is highly plausible!
Another example of Holden running away from his past is when he lies to strangers about his identity. He enjoys constructing fake personas when conversing with others. When he speaks to his classmate's mother on the train, he introduces himself as "Rudolf Schmidt" (54). He then goes on to construct a false story about her son Ernie, and tells her how nice he is, when in fact he thought of her son as "the biggest bastard that ever went to Pencey" (54). At the end of the conversation, Holden tells the woman that he has a tumour in his brain. By saying this, he wins over the sympathy of the woman and gets a bit of pity for the rest of the ride. He becomes a victim and is no longer considered a "bad person" because of his abnormality.
By creating these fake identities, Holden can play around for a while, trying on all sorts of pasts and problems, which are fine to him as long as they aren't his own. This helps him get away from the guilt he feels from his own past, whether it be from being a coward, as Faria mentions with Maurice and Sunny, or being a neglectful brother, as Faria mentions with Allie's death.
I agree with Faria when she says that Holden tries to relive his memories according to his preference. His conversation with his deceased brother Allie shows us Holden’s guilt. By reliving this memory to his liking, he feels he is able to change his past. However, I believe Holden is trying not to repeat his mistakes.
Holden tries to play the sweet big brother role with Phoebe. In ch.21, Holden gets into an argument with Phoebe, which ends off with Phoebe hiding under her pillow. Holden tried very hard to make it up to Phoebe. To me, it seems that Holden doesn’t want to make the same mistake he made with Allie. This could explain why on pg.210 Holden had forced Phoebe to go for a ride on the carrousel. He didn’t want to deprive Phoebe from her fun, the way he did with Allie.
POST#3 QUESTION#4 At the beginning of Chapter 13 when Holden talks about his gloves that were stolen at Pencey, and how he wanted to know who had stolen them. Even though that information would be of no use to him, he then made a scenario about what he might of done knowing who had taken them. Holden tends to use his imagination in situations to remove the feelings of sorrow depending on the circumstance. His imagination has helped him many times in the past, for example with Sunny and Maurice when he imagined an alternate ending to their encounter. Allie’s death greatly affected Holden’s life and it was an incredible loss in his life. Every time he is depressed he always mentions Allie. I believe that Holden does this because he has trouble moving on with life and letting go of certain losses he has faced. The gloves that were stolen and his brother are two examples of that exactly.
In the beginning of chapter 13 Holden creates a scenario with his gloves that are stolen. Even though it was pointless stating it, we can make a connection with Allie about how Holden creates different scenarios so that they are in his favour. When Holden feels guilty about something that has happened in the past, he tries to change it so that he feels better about it. Holden has done this many times throughout the novel but the one with Aliie was in chapter 14 when he discusses his gulit about how he wouldn't take Allie with him and Bobby. For that he made up the scenario of telling Allie to go home and get his bike. Just to get out of his depression Holden makes up scenarios to make himself feel better.
After deep thought I’ve realized that Holden is a teenage boy who holds on to things that are meaningful to him. Innocence is one example. He also holds on to certain events or mishaps for way too long. I really appreciate that Kayla brought up the fact that Holden has a vivid imagination, and that he uses it a lot. I find that I, and many people whether they admit to it or not, can relate to Holden in the sense that we hold on to precious, or not so dear, memories. For example: remembering something that might have happened and using one’s imagination to change the outcome. I know I’ve done that many times. When Holden imagines an alternate ending to the encounter he has with Maurice and Sunny, he imagines himself the brave, victorious soldier. I believe that this is a confidence booster. Even though he can’t control reality, he manipulates his thoughts in a way that pleases him. As for talking to Allie, Holden finds comfort in talking to his deceased brother. Everyone mourns the loss of a loved one in different ways, and this is Holden’s way of coping. Like Kayla stated, the imagination that Holden uses is simply a tool helping the boy go on with his life, the way that he knows how to.
I think the word Sana is looking for is regret. Holden has many feelings of regret in his life, many times where he could have done something different. On Pg. 79, Holden tells us of a scene he shared with Jane. Jane cried, and Holden never found out why she did. On the next page, Holden says “it almost drove [him] crazy” to think about “her and Stradlater in than damn Ed Banky’s car”, showing profound emotion. Another time that Holden regrets is when he remembers refusing Allie’s request to go to the Lake with him (Pg. 98-99). Now that Allie has died, Holden feels really really really bad about what he did.
This regret sometimes spills over onto things such as the loss of his gloves (Pg. 88-89) and the broken record (Pg. 154). Sometimes, as with the case of the gloves and Allie and the Lake, Holden remodels a situation, not necessarily to perfection, but in a way that – like Sana said – makes him feel better about it.
Post 2 Holden was obviously very fond of his baseball glove because they belonged to his deceased brother Allie. Holden maybe feels that the baseball glove and the gloves that were stolen were very similar and if ever his baseball glove was stolen, he would envision how to get them back. In the beginning of chapter 13 Holden did not only make up an entire scenario about his glove because his hands were cold. I feel as though he wanted to make himself feel better by making up a scenario and to imagine that he could have gotten his glove back. He imagined that if his baseball glove was stolen he would retrieve and defend it because it was so important to him "..but I feel I ought to sock the guy in the jaw...". But for a normal glove though, Holden would not do it "Not that I'd have done much about it even if I had known." and make a ridiculous excuse for example "I just wasn't in the mood" like when he wanted to meet Jane Gallagher. In the beginning of chapter 14 Holden begins to speak with Allie because he was feeling down. "Boy, I felt miserable. I felt so depressed, you can't imagine." When one is depressed, sometimes the past just creeps up and one may think of how they could have been better or done better. I feel as though Holden is experiencing theses problems. In times of great misery, maybe he felt as though he failed as being a brother Allie could look up to. Therefore allowing Allie to go with them to go shooting would allow them to spend more time together which is what Holden clearly misses. -Christopher Wong
Post#1: Question#1
ReplyDeleteI think Holden does this, because he doesn’t seem to be able to forget about the things he loses. For example, the pair of gloves he had lost were gone for good, yet he wanted to know who had stolen them, and imagined a scenario that might have occurred if he had caught the thief. Similarily in chapter 14, when he talks to his brother Allie, he mentions the fact that he often says ‘Okay. Go home and get your bike and meet me in front of Bobby’s house...’ He had once avoided taking Allie with Bobby and him on a trip to Lake Sedebego, since he identified Allie as too young. After Allie had departed his life, Holden feels blameworthy for failing to fulfill Allie’s hope. Although it had only occurred just once, everytime he feels depressed, he attempts to change the thought of his blameworthy, by reliving that situation through imagination- this time the way he would have wanted it to be.
POST #2: QUESTION #4
ReplyDeleteAt the beginning of Chapter 13, while Holden is walking back to his hotel, he wishes he had his gloves with him to keep his hands warm. His gloves were stolen while he was at Pencey, and Holden expresses that he would like to know who took them, although he acknowledges that he probably wouldn’t have done much if he did know who took them because he is one of the ‘very yellow guys.’ Holden goes on to construct a scenario in which he depicts what he would have done if he had the courage to apprehend the culprit, and even then, he still does not have the guts to directly accuse the person. Later on, in Chapter 14, Holden reminisces about a time when Allie was still alive and how one day Holden refused to take Allie along with him and Bobby Fallon on a ‘hunting’ trip with BB guns because Allie was child. Holden states that on days when he feels very depressed, he revisits the memory and attempts to change it by telling Allie that he is allowed to come with him and Bobby.
Holden does this because of a previous experience also involving Allie. When Allie died, Holden lost someone he cherished and because of that, Holden has issues or difficulties letting go of things that have been taken away from him, such as his gloves and his younger brother. His inability to let go or feel closure (in the case of his brother) results in Holden feeling very depressed. When Holden gets depressed, he tries to revisit the past to change it to his liking. This also occurs in cases where a particular scene does not go the way Holden would have wanted it, so he tries to reconstruct it, this time making him the ‘hero’. In the scenario with the gloves, he became the guy who stands up for himself. As for the scenario with Allie, Holden feels guilty that he deprived Allie of fun for no reason, so he makes himself the wonderful older brother. Another instance in which Holden is depressed in is after Maurice and Sunny leave his hotel suite at the end of chapter 14. He says, “But I’m crazy. I swear to God I am. About halfway to the bathroom, I sort of started pretending I had a bullet in my gut. Old Maurice had plugged me.” He creates an imaginary alternate ending to his encounter with Maurice, this time instead of being the humiliated and crying little boy, he gets to be wounded but brave hero who gets revenge on Maurice by shooting him ‘through his fat hairy belly’ and getting Jane to come and hold his cigarette for him as he smoked.
Whenever Holden feels depressed about a certain memory, he would rather revisit it to change the past than live with the pain or guilt because he is unable to deal with the emotions that surface with these recollections. He does this because although he cannot change the present or alter the future, it doesn’t mean that he won’t manipulate the past... at least in his memories.
- Faria
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteRESPONSE #2 to Faria Dar's post
ReplyDeleteFaria's theory that Holden tends to shape his memories to make himself a hero so that he can feel better is highly plausible!
Another example of Holden running away from his past is when he lies to strangers about his identity. He enjoys constructing fake personas when conversing with others. When he speaks to his classmate's mother on the train, he introduces himself as "Rudolf Schmidt" (54). He then goes on to construct a false story about her son Ernie, and tells her how nice he is, when in fact he thought of her son as "the biggest bastard that ever went to Pencey" (54). At the end of the conversation, Holden tells the woman that he has a tumour in his brain. By saying this, he wins over the sympathy of the woman and gets a bit of pity for the rest of the ride. He becomes a victim and is no longer considered a "bad person" because of his abnormality.
By creating these fake identities, Holden can play around for a while, trying on all sorts of pasts and problems, which are fine to him as long as they aren't his own. This helps him get away from the guilt he feels from his own past, whether it be from being a coward, as Faria mentions with Maurice and Sunny, or being a neglectful brother, as Faria mentions with Allie's death.
-Patricia
Response #2 Response to Faria. D
ReplyDeleteI agree with Faria when she says that Holden tries to relive his memories according to his preference. His conversation with his deceased brother Allie shows us Holden’s guilt. By reliving this memory to his liking, he feels he is able to change his past. However, I believe Holden is trying not to repeat his mistakes.
Holden tries to play the sweet big brother role with Phoebe. In ch.21, Holden gets into an argument with Phoebe, which ends off with Phoebe hiding under her pillow. Holden tried very hard to make it up to Phoebe. To me, it seems that Holden doesn’t want to make the same mistake he made with Allie. This could explain why on pg.210 Holden had forced Phoebe to go for a ride on the carrousel. He didn’t want to deprive Phoebe from her fun, the way he did with Allie.
-Pavitha. S
POST#3 QUESTION#4
ReplyDeleteAt the beginning of Chapter 13 when Holden talks about his gloves that were stolen at Pencey, and how he wanted to know who had stolen them. Even though that information would be of no use to him, he then made a scenario about what he might of done knowing who had taken them. Holden tends to use his imagination in situations to remove the feelings of sorrow depending on the circumstance. His imagination has helped him many times in the past, for example with Sunny and Maurice when he imagined an alternate ending to their encounter. Allie’s death greatly affected Holden’s life and it was an incredible loss in his life. Every time he is depressed he always mentions Allie. I believe that Holden does this because he has trouble moving on with life and letting go of certain losses he has faced. The gloves that were stolen and his brother are two examples of that exactly.
Post #3: Question #4
ReplyDeleteIn the beginning of chapter 13 Holden creates a scenario with his gloves that are stolen. Even though it was pointless stating it, we can make a connection with Allie about how Holden creates different scenarios so that they are in his favour. When Holden feels guilty about something that has happened in the past, he tries to change it so that he feels better about it. Holden has done this many times throughout the novel but the one with Aliie was in chapter 14 when he discusses his gulit about how he wouldn't take Allie with him and Bobby. For that he made up the scenario of telling Allie to go home and get his bike. Just to get out of his depression Holden makes up scenarios to make himself feel better.
RESPONSE #1 TO KAYLA'S POST
ReplyDeleteAfter deep thought I’ve realized that Holden is a teenage boy who holds on to things that are meaningful to him. Innocence is one example. He also holds on to certain events or mishaps for way too long. I really appreciate that Kayla brought up the fact that Holden has a vivid imagination, and that he uses it a lot. I find that I, and many people whether they admit to it or not, can relate to Holden in the sense that we hold on to precious, or not so dear, memories. For example: remembering something that might have happened and using one’s imagination to change the outcome. I know I’ve done that many times. When Holden imagines an alternate ending to the encounter he has with Maurice and Sunny, he imagines himself the brave, victorious soldier. I believe that this is a confidence booster. Even though he can’t control reality, he manipulates his thoughts in a way that pleases him. As for talking to Allie, Holden finds comfort in talking to his deceased brother. Everyone mourns the loss of a loved one in different ways, and this is Holden’s way of coping. Like Kayla stated, the imagination that Holden uses is simply a tool helping the boy go on with his life, the way that he knows how to.
-Ariana
POST#5 Response#3 to Sana
ReplyDeleteI think the word Sana is looking for is regret. Holden has many feelings of regret in his life, many times where he could have done something different. On Pg. 79, Holden tells us of a scene he shared with Jane. Jane cried, and Holden never found out why she did. On the next page, Holden says “it almost drove [him] crazy” to think about “her and Stradlater in than damn Ed Banky’s car”, showing profound emotion. Another time that Holden regrets is when he remembers refusing Allie’s request to go to the Lake with him (Pg. 98-99). Now that Allie has died, Holden feels really really really bad about what he did.
This regret sometimes spills over onto things such as the loss of his gloves (Pg. 88-89) and the broken record (Pg. 154). Sometimes, as with the case of the gloves and Allie and the Lake, Holden remodels a situation, not necessarily to perfection, but in a way that – like Sana said – makes him feel better about it.
-Aragorn
Post 2
ReplyDeleteHolden was obviously very fond of his baseball glove because they belonged to his deceased brother Allie. Holden maybe feels that the baseball glove and the gloves that were stolen were very similar and if ever his baseball glove was stolen, he would envision how to get them back.
In the beginning of chapter 13 Holden did not only make up an entire scenario about his glove because his hands were cold. I feel as though he wanted to make himself feel better by making up a scenario and to imagine that he could have gotten his glove back. He imagined that if his baseball glove was stolen he would retrieve and defend it because it was so important to him "..but I feel I ought to sock the guy in the jaw...". But for a normal glove though, Holden would not do it "Not that I'd have done much about it even if I had known." and make a ridiculous excuse for example "I just wasn't in the mood" like when he wanted to meet Jane Gallagher.
In the beginning of chapter 14 Holden begins to speak with Allie because he was feeling down. "Boy, I felt miserable. I felt so depressed, you can't imagine." When one is depressed, sometimes the past just creeps up and one may think of how they could have been better or done better. I feel as though Holden is experiencing theses problems. In times of great misery, maybe he felt as though he failed as being a brother Allie could look up to. Therefore allowing Allie to go with them to go shooting would allow them to spend more time together which is what Holden clearly misses.
-Christopher Wong