In chapter 22, Holden has a peculiar reaction to Pheobe's question about whether he actually likes anything. Specifically, he has a strong opinion about lawyers. What is significant about this conversation?
In chapter 22, Phoebe accuses her brother of not liking anything. Amidst the fact that deep down inside, Holden is probably beginning to realize that this is true, he still tries to prove his sister wrong and is determined to find one thing that he enjoys doing. Eventually, Phoebe and Holden get onto the topic of future careers. When Phoebe asks him if he wants to be a lawyer like their father, Holden gets into this whole discussion on how “phony” and money-hungry lawyers are.
On page 172, Holden states that he wouldn’t mind lawyers if they actually helped innocent people. He also claims that if a lawyer were to help a guiltless person out, chances are that they would be doing it for the recognition and not because it is morally correct. I think that Holden raises a really good point with this argument. Sometimes, we do things in order to be seen as successful and not because it is the right thing. If lawyers had good intentions and were actually interested in aiding others, maybe Holden would have considered this career rather than bash it.
Though many may disagree with me, this particular part of the novel really made me think. It was one of the first places that made me realize that Holden isn’t the bad, angry person that we’ve made him out to be. I believe that Holden is only cynical and critical because he expects so much more from the world and from the people in it. All he wants is for people to be sincere and to be genuinely looking out for each other. This was also one of the first times that we see Holden taking on this hero role of wanting to assist others. On page 173, he talks about wanting to be the catcher in the rye to save children from getting corrupt and losing their innocence. Though this can be seen as a rather immature statement, Holden is trying to help others which showed me that he really isn’t all that bad.
The significance of this conversation, particularly what is mentioned about lawyers, is that it represents Holden's true fear of growing up.
Throughout the novel, readers are giving glimpses of this insecurity but from this conversation it can be determined that Holden is incredibly afraid of entering adulthood, the main reason of this fear being that he does not wish to "become" phony. As can be seen when Holden gives his opinion about lawyers, he shows animosity towards them as well as other careers in general due to his perception that he would become phony without realizing it and thus without preventing it. This view of adulthood and phoniness can be proven when Holden states "How would you know you weren't eing a phony? The trouble is, you wouldn't." (page 172) By having Holden speak the preceding statement, Salinger shows readers where Holden's fear of growing up truly originates from and is a very significant part of the novel in the sense that Holden's thoughts are much clearer to readers following this conversation.
The conversation between Phoebe and Holden represents what Holden thinks of people’s relation to their career.
Holden seems to dislike the thought of becoming a lawyer. He says lawyers are fine if they are constantly helping people, but that’s not what they actually do. (p.172) He sees lawyers as people who do good things for money and because it’s their job. Holden sees this as being phony, and this shows us that Holden wants his career to connect to his personnel life.
I agree with Rabaya that the conversation based on lawyers demonstrates Holden’s objection to the job. He believes that lawyers are “all right if they go around saving innocent guy’s lives all the time”, but according to Holden, they don’t. He considers them “hot-shots” who make a lot of dough and play golf and bridge and buy luxurious items. However, Holden even has trouble with the “good guys”. Are they really helping the innocent? Or are they helping themselves with their career? Therefore, Rabaya is right when she says that “Holden sees this as being phony”. This is also proven on page 172 when he explicitly states, “How would you know you weren’t being a phony? The trouble is, you wouldn’t.”
Rabaya also mentions that, through his conversation with Phoebe, “he shows us that he wants his career to connect to his personal life.” To support that statement, Holden expressed numerous times throughout the story that he wishes to be the catcher in the rye. On page 173, he says it again, this time explaining the job to his sister. “What I have to do, I have to catch everybody if they start to go over the cliff...” This job demonstrates Holden’s wish to preserve the innocence of children. This wish connects to him personally because he is torn between staying young and growing up.
To conclude, the significance of the conversation is that the phoniness in jobs affects Holden to the point where he fears the idea of growing up.
This specific scene in Chapter 22, is quite an important one. Throughout the entire novel, Holden expresses constant dislike and negativity towards practically everything and everyone around him.
Phoebe, one of the very few people that Holden truly likes, suddenly confronts him dead-on with the fact that he doesn't like anything. Forcing him to think about this, Holden falls into denial and becomes quite uptight about the whole topic. The issue had slapped him in the face and he had no choice but to talk about it.
Struggling to put together a satisfying answer for his beloved Phoebe, Holden begins to ramble in, as I perceived, panic. One of the things he said was concerning his disgust with lawyers and how they can never be trusted; whether they're supporting an innocent case or not. His opinion about lawyers also links into how he perceives his own father, as he is one himself.
After reading this conversation, we see how Holden views different careers and believes most of them are phony or ways to manipulate your way into getting money. He realizes that the only thing he truly likes is Phoebe, his brother Allie and the idea of becoming the Catcher in the Rye.
I agree with George when he says that the conversation represents Holden’s fear of growing up. From the beginning of the novel, Holden makes it quite clear that he hates phonies. According to him, adults are phony. This is the reason as to why he is afraid to enter adulthood; he doesn’t want to become a phony himself.
However, this conversation also shows that Holden doesn’t have any serious plans for himself in the future. He doesn’t want to be a lawyer because he thinks it’s phony. He would rather be the Catcher in the Rye. This is a fictional career he created for himself. He wants to stop children from losing their innocence and entering adulthood. This career of his also shows that he is not ready to enter the adult life.
Phoebe, who (from her refusal to look at Holden) appears to be tired of hearing Holden's various excuses to justify his expulsion from yet another school, challenges Holden by asking him to name one simple thing that he likes.
By the conversation that follows, the reader is aware that Holden is having trouble thinking of things he likes, things he likes a lot. Holden kept repeating the question, asking whether Phoebe asked for something he likes, or something he likes a lot. I took this as an indication that Holden was trying to buy himself some time. However, throughout the entirety of The Catcher in the Rye, Holden has been constantly repeating the things other people say.
The topic of conversation flows to what Holden would like to be. Holden then starts to talk about his opinion on lawyers. When Holden says; "All you do is make a lot of dough and play golf and play bridge and buy cars and drink Martinis and look like a hot-shot." (p.172)I believe his harsh opinion stems from his image of his father, who is a lawyer. Holden sees his father as one of those lawyers who became a lawyer simply to have everyone slap him on the back for a great trial. At the very beginning of the book, Holden says; "[...]My parents would have two hemorrhages apiece if I told anything pretty personal about them. [...] Especially my father." (p.1) From this, one can assume that his father likes to put on a show, or likes to appear greater than he really is. It's likely that Holden's deep-rooted hatred for 'phony' people grew from being forced to put on a display from a very young age.
This could very well be the reason for his dislike of 'growing up' and becoming an adult, and the responsibilities that come with it. Holden has always associated an 'adult' with 'phony'. More than anything, Holden does not want to become that which he dislikes the most, and as he mentions on p.172: "How would you know you weren't being a phony? The trouble is, you wouldn't.", not realizing that he has.
Response #3 to Zainab... I completely agree with Zainab’s prediction of the root of Holden’s hate of adulthood. His father is a lawyer he found ‘phony’, and since his ‘phoniness’ was put to Holden’s view since childhood, this certainly may be the reason of his hatred towards sdulthood, lawyers and phonies.
In chapter 22, Holden and his sister are talking about what he wants to be when he grows up. Already the fact that “grow” and “up” are in the same sentence touches a nerve for Holden. Holden has strong opinions about lawyers because as a child growing up he didn’t have a good example of one. In chapter fifteen Holden gives a brief description of his parents. Holden talks about how wealthy his family is, specifically his father, who works as a "Corporate LAWYER." Holden almost apologizes for the profession, saying, "Those guys really haul it in." He goes on to describe how his father wastes so much of his money on Broadway musicals. Here is a clear example of how much resentment Holden has for lawyers. Holden states that he wouldn’t mind lawyers if they actually helped innocent people. He also says that if a lawyer were to help a guiltless person out, chances are that they would be doing it for the recognition and not because it is morally correct.
Zainab explains very well on why Holden doesn't have anything that he really like. She exaplains that it is because of the hatred that he has for his father (who is a lawyer). As Zainab states, Holden has always associated an 'adult' with 'phony'. this clearly means that the idea of people being phony started off from is own home. He always talks positively about his family (his sister) but here his is talking negatively about his father and how his father became a lawyer just to get a slap on the back. This is probably why he doesn't want to grow up. He is probably afraid that he might become like his father (like the phony adults) if he grows up.
When Phoebe asks Holden as to whether or not he likes anything at all on page 169, Holden finds himself at a loss of words and can only repeat the question over and over again in order to beat around the bush. They never really come to the conclusion and find out what he likes, but rather transition into another question: What he would like to be. One of the career choices mentioned by Phoebe on page 172 was what their father was—a lawyer. Holden mentions that “Lawyers are alright” (172) but starts going into how lawyers aren’t exactly people that do their jobs and defend innocent people because that’s what they want to do but rather, they do it because of the praise that comes with it after a great trial. He sees most of them as the type of people he despises—phonies.
This could be tied to the whole “D.B. & Hollywood” part of the novel in a sense. D.B. going to Hollywood to “prostitute” his talented work to the motion pictures can be related to the slaps on the back that lawyers get after a great trial. Though both are different and have their own contexts, there seems to be a fine, fine string that can attach these two points together in the way that both involve talent being used with the ill intentions of fame.
I think that Marina brought up a very interesting idea; how lawyers and D.B. are so synonymous. Marina states “…there seems to be a fine, fine string that can attach these two points together in the way that both involve talent being used with the ill intentions of fame.” I have to agree with Marina’s perception. Holden finds that D.B. has become a ‘phony’ for prostituting himself in Hollywood. He also believes that lawyers are ‘phonies’ for not being real with themselves and others, the idea that a lawyer would take on a case and defend the innocent only to look good in the end, for example. Because of this, Holden doesn’t see lawyers as honest people. I think has a huge impact on how Holden sees his own father. I think that Holden must somewhat respect his father, but he definitely does not respect his career choice. If he feels like this about his own father, then of course he will feel slight hatred or confusion towards people in society who can be put in the same category. I think that Marina did a wonderful job analyzing the situation, bringing in her own idea about the fine line between lawyers and fame.
In chapter 22, Holden sneaks back home to visit Phoebe, she soon discovers that Holden had once again been expelled from a school. When Phoebe asks why he did it, Holden replies that he “just didn’t like anything that was happening at Pencey.” (p.g. 169) Phoebe replies by saying that he “doesn’t like anything that is happening.” (p.g. 169) Phoebe later asks what he would want to be, when she brings up lawyers Holden says that “it doesn’t appeal to (him).” The subject of lawyers is related to the theme of phoniness. For the majority of the book, Holden has criticized the Adult World for its Phoniness, those who are superficial, shallow and hypocritical. He says that adults are inevitably phonies, and that the problem is that they can’t see their own phoniness. One of the reasons why being a lawyer doesn’t appeal to Holden is because to him, lawyers are also phonies. Holden believes that it is alright if a person goes around saving innocent people’s lives because it is the right thing to do. But according to him, lawyers simply make a lot of money and play golf, and that when they do save someone’s life, chances are it is for the recognition and not because it is the right thing to do. There is some truth in Holden’s words; many people in our current society merely care for their own personal success and fortune. Holden’s response to Phoebe’s question also has significance, Holden says that he would “be the catcher in the rye and all” (p.g. 173). This is related to the theme of growing up. Holden fears growing up, to him becoming a lawyer is like growing up and becoming part of a world of phoniness. Holden fears growing up, because he does not want to be a part of the phony world that adults live in, preferring to alienate himself from everyone else. Lawyers represent the phoniness of the adult world, a world that Holden does not want to be a part of. Even though he accuses others of being phonies, he himself also displays these “faults” such as hypocrisy, he is also a phony, and like he said himself, “the trouble is, you wouldn’t (know you’re phony).” (p.g. 172)
Post #2, Question #7
ReplyDeleteIn chapter 22, Phoebe accuses her brother of not liking anything. Amidst the fact that deep down inside, Holden is probably beginning to realize that this is true, he still tries to prove his sister wrong and is determined to find one thing that he enjoys doing. Eventually, Phoebe and Holden get onto the topic of future careers. When Phoebe asks him if he wants to be a lawyer like their father, Holden gets into this whole discussion on how “phony” and money-hungry lawyers are.
On page 172, Holden states that he wouldn’t mind lawyers if they actually helped innocent people. He also claims that if a lawyer were to help a guiltless person out, chances are that they would be doing it for the recognition and not because it is morally correct. I think that Holden raises a really good point with this argument. Sometimes, we do things in order to be seen as successful and not because it is the right thing. If lawyers had good intentions and were actually interested in aiding others, maybe Holden would have considered this career rather than bash it.
Though many may disagree with me, this particular part of the novel really made me think. It was one of the first places that made me realize that Holden isn’t the bad, angry person that we’ve made him out to be. I believe that Holden is only cynical and critical because he expects so much more from the world and from the people in it. All he wants is for people to be sincere and to be genuinely looking out for each other. This was also one of the first times that we see Holden taking on this hero role of wanting to assist others. On page 173, he talks about wanting to be the catcher in the rye to save children from getting corrupt and losing their innocence. Though this can be seen as a rather immature statement, Holden is trying to help others which showed me that he really isn’t all that bad.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletePost #3 Question #7
ReplyDeleteThe significance of this conversation, particularly what is mentioned about lawyers, is that it represents Holden's true fear of growing up.
Throughout the novel, readers are giving glimpses of this insecurity but from this conversation it can be determined that Holden is incredibly afraid of entering adulthood, the main reason of this fear being that he does not wish to "become" phony. As can be seen when Holden gives his opinion about lawyers, he shows animosity towards them as well as other careers in general due to his perception that he would become phony without realizing it and thus without preventing it. This view of adulthood and phoniness can be proven when Holden states "How would you know you weren't eing a phony? The trouble is, you wouldn't." (page 172) By having Holden speak the preceding statement, Salinger shows readers where Holden's fear of growing up truly originates from and is a very significant part of the novel in the sense that Holden's thoughts are much clearer to readers following this conversation.
George Roumeliotis
Post #2 Question #7
ReplyDeleteThe conversation between Phoebe and Holden represents what Holden thinks of people’s relation to their career.
Holden seems to dislike the thought of becoming a lawyer. He says lawyers are fine if they are constantly helping people, but that’s not what they actually do. (p.172) He sees lawyers as people who do good things for money and because it’s their job. Holden sees this as being phony, and this shows us that Holden wants his career to connect to his personnel life.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteResponse #1 to Rabaya’s Post:
ReplyDeleteI agree with Rabaya that the conversation based on lawyers demonstrates Holden’s objection to the job. He believes that lawyers are “all right if they go around saving innocent guy’s lives all the time”, but according to Holden, they don’t. He considers them “hot-shots” who make a lot of dough and play golf and bridge and buy luxurious items. However, Holden even has trouble with the “good guys”. Are they really helping the innocent? Or are they helping themselves with their career? Therefore, Rabaya is right when she says that “Holden sees this as being phony”. This is also proven on page 172 when he explicitly states, “How would you know you weren’t being a phony? The trouble is, you wouldn’t.”
Rabaya also mentions that, through his conversation with Phoebe, “he shows us that he wants his career to connect to his personal life.” To support that statement, Holden expressed numerous times throughout the story that he wishes to be the catcher in the rye. On page 173, he says it again, this time explaining the job to his sister. “What I have to do, I have to catch everybody if they start to go over the cliff...” This job demonstrates Holden’s wish to preserve the innocence of children. This wish connects to him personally because he is torn between staying young and growing up.
To conclude, the significance of the conversation is that the phoniness in jobs affects Holden to the point where he fears the idea of growing up.
Post #1, Question 7
ReplyDeleteThis specific scene in Chapter 22, is quite an important one. Throughout the entire novel, Holden expresses constant dislike and negativity towards practically everything and everyone around him.
Phoebe, one of the very few people that Holden truly likes, suddenly confronts him dead-on with the fact that he doesn't like anything. Forcing him to think about this, Holden falls into denial and becomes quite uptight about the whole topic. The issue had slapped him in the face and he had no choice but to talk about it.
Struggling to put together a satisfying answer for his beloved Phoebe, Holden begins to ramble in, as I perceived, panic. One of the things he said was concerning his disgust with lawyers and how they can never be trusted; whether they're supporting an innocent case or not. His opinion about lawyers also links into how he perceives his own father, as he is one himself.
After reading this conversation, we see how Holden views different careers and believes most of them are phony or ways to manipulate your way into getting money. He realizes that the only thing he truly likes is Phoebe, his brother Allie and the idea of becoming the Catcher in the Rye.
Response #1 Response to George
ReplyDeleteI agree with George when he says that the conversation represents Holden’s fear of growing up. From the beginning of the novel, Holden makes it quite clear that he hates phonies. According to him, adults are phony. This is the reason as to why he is afraid to enter adulthood; he doesn’t want to become a phony himself.
However, this conversation also shows that Holden doesn’t have any serious plans for himself in the future. He doesn’t want to be a lawyer because he thinks it’s phony. He would rather be the Catcher in the Rye. This is a fictional career he created for himself. He wants to stop children from losing their innocence and entering adulthood. This career of his also shows that he is not ready to enter the adult life.
-Pavitha. S
Post #1, Question #1:
ReplyDeletePhoebe, who (from her refusal to look at Holden) appears to be tired of hearing Holden's various excuses to justify his expulsion from yet another school, challenges Holden by asking him to name one simple thing that he likes.
By the conversation that follows, the reader is aware that Holden is having trouble thinking of things he likes, things he likes a lot. Holden kept repeating the question, asking whether Phoebe asked for something he likes, or something he likes a lot. I took this as an indication that Holden was trying to buy himself some time. However, throughout the entirety of The Catcher in the Rye, Holden has been constantly repeating the things other people say.
The topic of conversation flows to what Holden would like to be. Holden then starts to talk about his opinion on lawyers. When Holden says; "All you do is make a lot of dough and play golf and play bridge and buy cars and drink Martinis and look like a hot-shot." (p.172)I believe his harsh opinion stems from his image of his father, who is a lawyer. Holden sees his father as one of those lawyers who became a lawyer simply to have everyone slap him on the back for a great trial. At the very beginning of the book, Holden says; "[...]My parents would have two hemorrhages apiece if I told anything pretty personal about them. [...] Especially my father." (p.1) From this, one can assume that his father likes to put on a show, or likes to appear greater than he really is. It's likely that Holden's deep-rooted hatred for 'phony' people grew from being forced to put on a display from a very young age.
This could very well be the reason for his dislike of 'growing up' and becoming an adult, and the responsibilities that come with it. Holden has always associated an 'adult' with 'phony'. More than anything, Holden does not want to become that which he dislikes the most, and as he mentions on p.172: "How would you know you weren't being a phony? The trouble is, you wouldn't.", not realizing that he has.
Response #3 to Zainab...
ReplyDeleteI completely agree with Zainab’s prediction of the root of Holden’s hate of adulthood. His father is a lawyer he found ‘phony’, and since his ‘phoniness’ was put to Holden’s view since childhood, this certainly may be the reason of his hatred towards sdulthood, lawyers and phonies.
Post #2 Question #2
ReplyDeleteIn chapter 22, Holden and his sister are talking about what he wants to be when he grows up. Already the fact that “grow” and “up” are in the same sentence touches a nerve for Holden. Holden has strong opinions about lawyers because as a child growing up he didn’t have a good example of one. In chapter fifteen Holden gives a brief description of his parents. Holden talks about how wealthy his family is, specifically his father, who works as a "Corporate LAWYER." Holden almost apologizes for the profession, saying, "Those guys really haul it in." He goes on to describe how his father wastes so much of his money on Broadway musicals. Here is a clear example of how much resentment Holden has for lawyers. Holden states that he wouldn’t mind lawyers if they actually helped innocent people. He also says that if a lawyer were to help a guiltless person out, chances are that they would be doing it for the recognition and not because it is morally correct.
Response #3 to Zainab's post
ReplyDeleteZainab explains very well on why Holden doesn't have anything that he really like. She exaplains that it is because of the hatred that he has for his father (who is a lawyer). As Zainab states, Holden has always associated an 'adult' with 'phony'. this clearly means that the idea of people being phony started off from is own home. He always talks positively about his family (his sister) but here his is talking negatively about his father and how his father became a lawyer just to get a slap on the back. This is probably why he doesn't want to grow up. He is probably afraid that he might become like his father (like the phony adults) if he grows up.
Post #3 Question #7
ReplyDeleteWhen Phoebe asks Holden as to whether or not he likes anything at all on page 169, Holden finds himself at a loss of words and can only repeat the question over and over again in order to beat around the bush. They never really come to the conclusion and find out what he likes, but rather transition into another question: What he would like to be. One of the career choices mentioned by Phoebe on page 172 was what their father was—a lawyer. Holden mentions that “Lawyers are alright” (172) but starts going into how lawyers aren’t exactly people that do their jobs and defend innocent people because that’s what they want to do but rather, they do it because of the praise that comes with it after a great trial. He sees most of them as the type of people he despises—phonies.
This could be tied to the whole “D.B. & Hollywood” part of the novel in a sense. D.B. going to Hollywood to “prostitute” his talented work to the motion pictures can be related to the slaps on the back that lawyers get after a great trial. Though both are different and have their own contexts, there seems to be a fine, fine string that can attach these two points together in the way that both involve talent being used with the ill intentions of fame.
RESPONSE #3 TO MARINA'S POST
ReplyDeleteI think that Marina brought up a very interesting idea; how lawyers and D.B. are so synonymous. Marina states “…there seems to be a fine, fine string that can attach these two points together in the way that both involve talent being used with the ill intentions of fame.” I have to agree with Marina’s perception. Holden finds that D.B. has become a ‘phony’ for prostituting himself in Hollywood. He also believes that lawyers are ‘phonies’ for not being real with themselves and others, the idea that a lawyer would take on a case and defend the innocent only to look good in the end, for example. Because of this, Holden doesn’t see lawyers as honest people. I think has a huge impact on how Holden sees his own father. I think that Holden must somewhat respect his father, but he definitely does not respect his career choice. If he feels like this about his own father, then of course he will feel slight hatred or confusion towards people in society who can be put in the same category. I think that Marina did a wonderful job analyzing the situation, bringing in her own idea about the fine line between lawyers and fame.
-Ariana
Post #3 Question #7
ReplyDeleteLegal Phonies
In chapter 22, Holden sneaks back home to visit Phoebe, she soon discovers that Holden had once again been expelled from a school. When Phoebe asks why he did it, Holden replies that he “just didn’t like anything that was happening at Pencey.” (p.g. 169) Phoebe replies by saying that he “doesn’t like anything that is happening.” (p.g. 169) Phoebe later asks what he would want to be, when she brings up lawyers Holden says that “it doesn’t appeal to (him).” The subject of lawyers is related to the theme of phoniness.
For the majority of the book, Holden has criticized the Adult World for its Phoniness, those who are superficial, shallow and hypocritical. He says that adults are inevitably phonies, and that the problem is that they can’t see their own phoniness. One of the reasons why being a lawyer doesn’t appeal to Holden is because to him, lawyers are also phonies. Holden believes that it is alright if a person goes around saving innocent people’s lives because it is the right thing to do. But according to him, lawyers simply make a lot of money and play golf, and that when they do save someone’s life, chances are it is for the recognition and not because it is the right thing to do. There is some truth in Holden’s words; many people in our current society merely care for their own personal success and fortune.
Holden’s response to Phoebe’s question also has significance, Holden says that he would “be the catcher in the rye and all” (p.g. 173). This is related to the theme of growing up. Holden fears growing up, to him becoming a lawyer is like growing up and becoming part of a world of phoniness.
Holden fears growing up, because he does not want to be a part of the phony world that adults live in, preferring to alienate himself from everyone else. Lawyers represent the phoniness of the adult world, a world that Holden does not want to be a part of. Even though he accuses others of being phonies, he himself also displays these “faults” such as hypocrisy, he is also a phony, and like he said himself, “the trouble is, you wouldn’t (know you’re phony).” (p.g. 172)
- Kurt Lo