In chapter 24 Mr. Antolini offers Holden great incites into the 'fall' Holden is 'riding for'. Which Antolini quotes in this chapter are particularly interesting for the meaning of the story?
POST #3: QUESTION #8 While Holden visits Mr. Antolini at his apartment, they engage in a discussion about where Holden is headed in life. Mr. Antolini attempts to knock some sense into Holden in the form of a speech. In this speech, Mr. Antolini raises some very important and quotable points. One particular quote that I found very relevant towards one of the themes in the novel was when Mr. Antolini says, “Among other things, you’ll find that you’re not the first person who was ever confused and frightened and even sickened by human behaviour. [...] Many, many men have been just as troubled morally and spiritually as you are right now. [...] You’ll learn from them – if you want to.” Throughout the entire novel, Holden has always viewed society as him against the world; the phonies that make up society against a teenage boy. That notion, combined with Allie’s death, made Holden want to alienate himself from others. Holden thought that he was the only one who saw people for who they really were, whether they were phonies like Principal Thurmer, or ‘real’ people like Phoebe or Jane. Allie’s death occurred when Holden was only thirteen years old. As we grow up, we all question the society we live in, and the system in which we function in. It is the same with Holden except it is combined with grief plus the lack of attention and affection from his parents that caused Holden to be confused and perhaps a little resentful towards the world – in particular, the people who live in it. Why did people like Allie die, while people like Maurice got to live and corrupt society? Why was someone as good as Jane forced to live with someone as shady as her step-dad? The many flaws and faults in our world confuse and sicken Holden. To top it all, Holden believes it’s only him who is going through this, which adds to the fear of growing up. Mr. Antolini is the first to suggest that maybe he isn’t the only one who has to live through this, because there have been people who have been there, done that, and lived to write the tale. According to Mr. Antolini, there have been countless books on people who are like Holden and have changed for the better, books which Holden can learn from. By reaching out and applying himself, Holden can learn from their mistakes before he has the chance of committing his own, and learn to grow up in the process.
Many good aspects of Mr. Antolini's advice to Holden were brought up in this post, particularly when it is mentioned that Holden can learn from the experiences of others in order to gain greater wisdom thus greatly benefitting himself. It is important to note that Faria has brought up this point that others have had the same thoughts as Holden and that he should take interest in learning from these people.
Holden's perception of the world is another good point that is metioned in Faria's post. He sees the world in simple black and white and is very conflicted by all of the terrible things that occur in it. As stated, it is confusing why Allie should die while Maurice should run his "business". Faria brings up a strong point by posting this problem that disrupts Holden.
Overall, Faria brings up topics which explain Mr. Antolini's attempt to help Holden in life which in turn makes for a solid post.
The quote brought up by Faria has a very deep meaning. It relates to a theme of the novel, but it also relates to our society today. Mr. Antolini gives Holden a chance to mature and understand society when he says Holden is not the only one who feels that they’re out of place in society. It is very important to note that Mr. Antolini played the role of a mentor in Holden’s. Although other teachers had tried to help Holden (such as Mr. Spencer), he had never taken great interest in their advise. However, when Mr. Antolini was advising him, he tried his best to pay attention. It was mainly out of respect, but it’s possible that Holden was waiting for someone to tell him that he’s not alone.
Faria’s post explains in detail the relation between this quote and some of the themes of the novel, which is the fear of growing up and alienation.
When Holden visits Mr. Antolini, they become engrossed in a conversation realted to Holden's future. Mr. Antolini tries to give Holden some advice through his speech. Mr.Antolini says,"I don't want to scare you, but I can very clearly see you dying nobly, one way or another, for some highly unworthy cause." (p.188) Mr. Antolini explains that he can see where Holden may lead himself. He can see Holden dying nobly for something that is highly unworthy.
As we see Holden's life throughout the novel,we realize that he had to go through a lot. We know that Holden sees most(if not all) adults as phonies, who have corrupted society. He doesn't really get along with adults(except Mr. Antolini and a few others) because most things they do are usually considered phony to Holden. They only people that he really got along with were close to him( such as Phoebe, Jane and even his brother Allie). According to Holden, Allie dies too soon and lost his innocence. Maybe if Allie hadn't died and his parents would have understood him better, Holden might have been a complete,y different person. These things play a big role in Holden's life. Holden's parents, all they thought about was giving Holden good education but they never asked him as to what he wanted. Holden just kept on going until he finally gave up and decided to leave the house because he know they would be furious and so he went in search for a different life. Now when Mr. Antolini is advising Holden, he tells him that he should go to school and get educated but then he contradicts(right after Holden interrupts) because he understands Holden; he says, "I'm not trying to tell you that only educated and scholarly men are able to contribute to something valuable to the world...(p.189) Here Mr. Antolini explains that Holden doesn't have to be educated to express himself. As Mr. Antolini continues to speak, he says that an educated man expreses himself clearly. In other words he wants Holden to share his experience woth others he explains that it would be best that Holden be educated before he shares anything with the world.
Mr. Antolini wants Holden to share his experience with others and maybe people will follow his example. This way Holden will understand that he isn't the only one who feels excluded from society.
Falling off the cliff at the edge of the rye field.
After Holden tells Mr. Antolini that he had once again been expelled from a school, he is invited by Mr. Antolini to stay over at his apartment. There, they discuss why he was expelled and why he did not apply himself in school. Mr. Antolini also told Holden how he was “riding himself for a terrible, terrible fall.” (p.g. 186). During their conversation, Mr. Antolini told Holden: “I have a feeling that you’re riding for some kind of terrible, terrible fall. . . . This fall I think you’re riding for – it’s a special kind of fall, a horrible kind…The whole arrangement’s designed for men who, at some time or other in their lives, were looking for something their own environment couldn’t supply them with. . . . So they gave up looking.” (p.g. 186-187) This quote is related to both a theme and a symbol in the story. The “fall” that Mr. Antolini is talking about is similar to the fall that Holden says he wants to prevent children from doing if they stray too close to the cliff on the edge of the rye field. In Holden’s Catcher in the Rye view of the world, the rye field is childhood, where children run freely, while the fall from the cliff is the transition from childhood to adulthood, which is attributed to death. The fall which Mr. Antolini described is seen as an apathetic free fall in which one detaches himself from the world and gives up. In both images, Holden is standing on the edge, in danger of falling. Falling off the cliff represents growing up, which is a major theme in the story. Holden fears growing up, he sees it as losing one’s innocence and entering a world of hypocrisy and phoniness. By being the “Catcher in the Rye”, Holden wants to protect and catch the children that fall off the cliff. However, he is the one in danger of falling, with Mr. Antolini being the one who has to “catch” him. Mr. Antolini is helping Holden by giving him advice, telling him to apply himself in school. In this way he is “catching” Holden before he falls off the cliff.
Lo brings up major points that once again reveal Holden’s hypocrisy. He wants to be the “Catcher in the Rye” yet he himself is falling off the edge. Holden also doesn’t seem to want other adults helping him and other kids from “falling off the edge” as demonstrated by him telling Phoebe that he “keeps picturing all these little kids playing some games in this big field of rye and all. Thousands of little kids and nobody’s around-nobody big, I mean-except me.”(p.173) The fact that nobody big, referring to adults, are around would mean false “freedom” for the kids in the form of not having to grow up and face reality, something Mr. Caulfield seems to avoid like the plague.
In addition to Lo’s views I’d also like to bring up another interesting Antolini quote:
“This fall I think you’re riding for-it’s a special kind of fall, a horrible kind. […] The whole arrangement’s designed for men who, at some time or other in their lives, were looking for something their own environment couldn’t supply them with. Or they thought their own environment couldn’t supply them with. So they gave up looking. They gave it up before they even really got started.”(p.187)
It seemed to me as if Mr. Antolini caught on to Holden’s tendency to social alienate himself from others. The “something” that was being sought in the quote might have been love in Holden’s case. His “own environment” or family could not supply him with it since Holden went to school away from his parents, thus not being able to see them regularly, and the person closest to him was his brother Allie, who currently resides in the afterworld. Holden then “gave up looking” for friendship and love before he “even really got started.” Mr. Antolini is most likely a lot more knowledgeable about Holden than many think him to be. It must be assumed that if Holden, a hypocritical teenager that socially alienates himself from almost everyone would actually call up one of his former teachers to go see him, that teacher has gotten relatively close to Holden- at least far closer than most other human beings have gotten, and thus has most likely already analyzed his actions and behavior
POST #3: QUESTION #8
ReplyDeleteWhile Holden visits Mr. Antolini at his apartment, they engage in a discussion about where Holden is headed in life. Mr. Antolini attempts to knock some sense into Holden in the form of a speech. In this speech, Mr. Antolini raises some very important and quotable points. One particular quote that I found very relevant towards one of the themes in the novel was when Mr. Antolini says, “Among other things, you’ll find that you’re not the first person who was ever confused and frightened and even sickened by human behaviour. [...] Many, many men have been just as troubled morally and spiritually as you are right now. [...] You’ll learn from them – if you want to.”
Throughout the entire novel, Holden has always viewed society as him against the world; the phonies that make up society against a teenage boy. That notion, combined with Allie’s death, made Holden want to alienate himself from others. Holden thought that he was the only one who saw people for who they really were, whether they were phonies like Principal Thurmer, or ‘real’ people like Phoebe or Jane. Allie’s death occurred when Holden was only thirteen years old. As we grow up, we all question the society we live in, and the system in which we function in. It is the same with Holden except it is combined with grief plus the lack of attention and affection from his parents that caused Holden to be confused and perhaps a little resentful towards the world – in particular, the people who live in it. Why did people like Allie die, while people like Maurice got to live and corrupt society? Why was someone as good as Jane forced to live with someone as shady as her step-dad? The many flaws and faults in our world confuse and sicken Holden. To top it all, Holden believes it’s only him who is going through this, which adds to the fear of growing up.
Mr. Antolini is the first to suggest that maybe he isn’t the only one who has to live through this, because there have been people who have been there, done that, and lived to write the tale. According to Mr. Antolini, there have been countless books on people who are like Holden and have changed for the better, books which Holden can learn from. By reaching out and applying himself, Holden can learn from their mistakes before he has the chance of committing his own, and learn to grow up in the process.
Response #1 to Faria's Post
ReplyDeleteMany good aspects of Mr. Antolini's advice to Holden were brought up in this post, particularly when it is mentioned that Holden can learn from the experiences of others in order to gain greater wisdom thus greatly benefitting himself. It is important to note that Faria has brought up this point that others have had the same thoughts as Holden and that he should take interest in learning from these people.
Holden's perception of the world is another good point that is metioned in Faria's post. He sees the world in simple black and white and is very conflicted by all of the terrible things that occur in it. As stated, it is confusing why Allie should die while Maurice should run his "business". Faria brings up a strong point by posting this problem that disrupts Holden.
Overall, Faria brings up topics which explain Mr. Antolini's attempt to help Holden in life which in turn makes for a solid post.
George Roumeliotis
Response #3 Response to Faria. D
ReplyDeleteThe quote brought up by Faria has a very deep meaning. It relates to a theme of the novel, but it also relates to our society today. Mr. Antolini gives Holden a chance to mature and understand society when he says Holden is not the only one who feels that they’re out of place in society. It is very important to note that Mr. Antolini played the role of a mentor in Holden’s. Although other teachers had tried to help Holden (such as Mr. Spencer), he had never taken great interest in their advise. However, when Mr. Antolini was advising him, he tried his best to pay attention. It was mainly out of respect, but it’s possible that Holden was waiting for someone to tell him that he’s not alone.
Faria’s post explains in detail the relation between this quote and some of the themes of the novel, which is the fear of growing up and alienation.
-Pavitha.S
Post #2:Question #8
ReplyDeleteWhen Holden visits Mr. Antolini, they become engrossed in a conversation realted to Holden's future. Mr. Antolini tries to give Holden some advice through his speech. Mr.Antolini says,"I don't want to scare you, but I can very clearly see you dying nobly, one way or another, for some highly unworthy cause." (p.188) Mr. Antolini
explains that he can see where Holden may lead himself. He can see Holden dying nobly for something that is highly unworthy.
As we see Holden's life throughout the novel,we realize that he had to go through a lot. We know that Holden sees most(if not all) adults as phonies, who have corrupted society. He doesn't really get along with adults(except Mr. Antolini and a few others) because most things they do are usually considered phony to Holden. They only people that he really got along with were close to him( such as Phoebe, Jane and even his brother Allie). According to Holden, Allie dies too soon and lost his innocence. Maybe if Allie hadn't died and his parents would have understood him better, Holden might have been a complete,y different person. These things play a big role in Holden's life. Holden's parents, all they thought about was giving Holden good education but they never asked him as to what he wanted. Holden just kept on going until he finally gave up and decided to leave the house because he know they would be furious and so he went in search for a different life. Now when Mr. Antolini is advising Holden, he tells him that he should go to school and get educated but then he contradicts(right after Holden interrupts) because he understands Holden; he says, "I'm not trying to tell you that only educated and scholarly men are able to contribute to something valuable to the world...(p.189) Here Mr. Antolini explains that Holden doesn't have to be educated to express himself. As Mr. Antolini continues to speak, he says that an educated man expreses himself clearly. In other words he wants Holden to share his experience woth others he explains that it would be best that Holden be educated before he shares anything with the world.
Mr. Antolini wants Holden to share his experience with others and maybe people will follow his example. This way Holden will understand that he isn't the only one who feels excluded from society.
Post #2 Question #8
ReplyDeleteFalling off the cliff at the edge of the rye field.
After Holden tells Mr. Antolini that he had once again been expelled from a school, he is invited by Mr. Antolini to stay over at his apartment. There, they discuss why he was expelled and why he did not apply himself in school. Mr. Antolini also told Holden how he was “riding himself for a terrible, terrible fall.” (p.g. 186). During their conversation, Mr. Antolini told Holden: “I have a feeling that you’re riding for some kind of terrible, terrible fall. . . . This fall I think you’re riding for – it’s a special kind of fall, a horrible kind…The whole arrangement’s designed for men who, at some time or other in their lives, were looking for something their own environment couldn’t supply them with. . . . So they gave up looking.” (p.g. 186-187) This quote is related to both a theme and a symbol in the story.
The “fall” that Mr. Antolini is talking about is similar to the fall that Holden says he wants to prevent children from doing if they stray too close to the cliff on the edge of the rye field. In Holden’s Catcher in the Rye view of the world, the rye field is childhood, where children run freely, while the fall from the cliff is the transition from childhood to adulthood, which is attributed to death. The fall which Mr. Antolini described is seen as an apathetic free fall in which one detaches himself from the world and gives up. In both images, Holden is standing on the edge, in danger of falling. Falling off the cliff represents growing up, which is a major theme in the story. Holden fears growing up, he sees it as losing one’s innocence and entering a world of hypocrisy and phoniness.
By being the “Catcher in the Rye”, Holden wants to protect and catch the children that fall off the cliff. However, he is the one in danger of falling, with Mr. Antolini being the one who has to “catch” him. Mr. Antolini is helping Holden by giving him advice, telling him to apply himself in school. In this way he is “catching” Holden before he falls off the cliff.
- Kurt Lo
Response #3 to Curtis Lo
ReplyDeleteLo brings up major points that once again reveal Holden’s hypocrisy. He wants to be the “Catcher in the Rye” yet he himself is falling off the edge. Holden also doesn’t seem to want other adults helping him and other kids from “falling off the edge” as demonstrated by him telling Phoebe that he “keeps picturing all these little kids playing some games in this big field of rye and all. Thousands of little kids and nobody’s around-nobody big, I mean-except me.”(p.173) The fact that nobody big, referring to adults, are around would mean false “freedom” for the kids in the form of not having to grow up and face reality, something Mr. Caulfield seems to avoid like the plague.
In addition to Lo’s views I’d also like to bring up another interesting Antolini quote:
“This fall I think you’re riding for-it’s a special kind of fall, a horrible kind. […] The whole arrangement’s designed for men who, at some time or other in their lives, were looking for something their own environment couldn’t supply them with. Or they thought their own environment couldn’t supply them with. So they gave up looking. They gave it up before they even really got started.”(p.187)
It seemed to me as if Mr. Antolini caught on to Holden’s tendency to social alienate himself from others. The “something” that was being sought in the quote might have been love in Holden’s case. His “own environment” or family could not supply him with it since Holden went to school away from his parents, thus not being able to see them regularly, and the person closest to him was his brother Allie, who currently resides in the afterworld. Holden then “gave up looking” for friendship and love before he “even really got started.” Mr. Antolini is most likely a lot more knowledgeable about Holden than many think him to be. It must be assumed that if Holden, a hypocritical teenager that socially alienates himself from almost everyone would actually call up one of his former teachers to go see him, that teacher has gotten relatively close to Holden- at least far closer than most other human beings have gotten, and thus has most likely already analyzed his actions and behavior