16.11.10
QUESTION #3
In chapter 14, the author brings up an important symbol in the novel, with Holden's preoccupation with the duck pond. What is interesting about this encounter with the cab driver Horwitz? Begin with your interpretation of the significance of the duck pond, and consider Horwitz's response to Holden.
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POST #1 QUESTION #3
ReplyDeleteThe first time the duck pond is mentioned is when Holden is saying goodbye to his old history teacher, Mr. Spencer. During this, Spencer confronts Holden about his lack of motivation and asks Holden if he has any concern for his future whatsoever. Holden on the other hand, doesn't seem to care about anything Mr. Spencer has to say, and thinks about where the ducks at the lagoon in Central Park go during the winter when the pond they inhabit is frozen. Holden states on page 13: "...I wondered if some guy came in a truck and took them away to a zoo... Or if they just flew away." Later on in the book, in chapter 9 and 12, Holden questions his cab drivers about the whereabouts of the ducks.
I believe that the ducks signify change. They live out their lives normally, without any real disruption until winter arrives and their habitat transforms into an icy Hell by the harsh climate. During the winter, they have all left the pond, but then when spring arrives and the ice melts all the ducks are back at the pond, going about like they had done so in the past. The ducks at Central Park go through a cycle of rebirth every year and are always forced to find ways around the problems life has thrown at them.
Holden himself is going through a period of change. He is a teenage boy on the verge of becoming an adult. That horrifies Holden because he's afraid of growing up and having responsibilities. Holden doesn't understand how the ducks are able to come back every spring after having to have faced the destruction of their homes and going through a great change in their lives. On page 14 of the Catcher and the Rye when Mr. Spencer tells Holden he will regret having little concern for his future Holden mentions a feeling of uneasiness, as shown in the last paragraphs: "I didn't like hearing him say that. It made me sound dead or something. It was very depressing." Holden feels uneasy because there is so much pressure on him for becoming a man. He's afraid of growing up because there are so many people telling him that if he makes the wrong choices in life he will regret them. He wants to know how the ducks are able to transition from winter to spring in such a gentle way without compromising everything they hold dear to themselves. Holden wishes that someone could just take him in a truck and whisk him off into adulthood, so that he could grow up without having to make any difficult choices.
POST #1 QUESTION #3 (continuation)
ReplyDeleteHolden asks two cab drivers about the ducks, which seems appropriate because it is the cab drivers who are bringing Holden to his destination, wherever it may be. There are many different ways to get to Holden's final destination, full of roadblocks and tickets, but they will eventually bring Holden there, as long as Holden gives them the right directions. Another reason it is appropriate that Holden asks the cab drivers about the ducks' transition is because the cab drivers are part of the group that Holden is terrified to join: adults.
The first cab driver Holden asks is rude about the question. He was probably upset because he didn't know how to answer Holden due to the fact that the cab driver's adult life had not been so flawlessly transitioned into as the ducks had in theirs. The cab driver may not have been too happy with his life, seeing as he was only a cab driver. Perhaps he had regretted certain things he had done when he was Holden's age, and couldn't come up with a response to Holden's mind boggling question.
The second cab driver Holden asks finally gives Holden an answer, even if it wasn't the answer he was searching for, in chapter 12. When Horwitz, the cab driver tells Holden that the fish "...live in the goddam ice... their bodies take in nutrition and all... they got their pores open the whole time." (page 82-83) he explains to Holden that unlike ducks, fish learn to live in the cruel conditions of winter and absorb the nutrients in their surroundings. For Holden, this means that if he wants to face his fear of growing up he just has to learn to go through the rough transformation and absorb both the good and the bad that surrounds him in order to become wiser (like the fish absorb nutrients). The fish don't ignore the ice, they live in it, they thrive in it, they survive in it.
Finally, when Holden leaves the cab, Horwitz tells him: "If you was a fish, Mother Nature'd take care of you, wouldn't she? You don't think them fish die when it gets to be winter, do ya?" (page 83). Horwitz is reassuring him that no matter what happens to Holden, everything will be OK. Life will take its course but becoming an adult won't kill him. It'll make him stronger and better, and whatever Holden does, it will all work out eventually.
-Patricia
POST #1: QUESTION #3
ReplyDeleteThe first time the ducks in Central Park are mentioned is in Chapter 2, when Holden ‘shot the bull’ to Mr. Spencer in order to make Mr. Spencer feel less guilty about failing Holden. He mentions that while he was shooting the bull, he wondered where the duck went when the lagoon became all icy in winter; whether they migrated south or if “some guy came in a truck and took them away to the zoo or something.” This is a clear symbol of Holden’s uncertainty concerning his options for the future after being expelled from Pencey Prep. Holden can sympathize and relate to the ducks because both of them are being kicked out of their home and have nowhere to turn to at the moment. This is also foreshadowing being forced to walk this world alone; his journey into the real world.
The second time Holden mentions the duck is in Chapter 9, when he asks his cab driver where the duck could possibly go. When the cab driver asks Holden if it’s his idea of a joke, Holden replies, "No – I was just interested, that’s all.” Holden’s inquiry about the ducks mirrors one of his concerns: where does one go when his environment can no longer support him? Where is the safe haven that we all crave when wanting to get away from the world? Holden desperately wants to know the answer to he can find someplace where he actually belongs. Later on, in Chapter 12, Holden brings up the subject again in the cab with his cab driver, Horwitz. This time, the cab driver gets very touchy and Holden calls him ‘sore’, and ends the conversation. However, Horwitz brings the topic back, instead talking about the fish. Before leaving, Horwitz tells Holden “Listen, if you was a fish, Mother Nature’d take care of you, wouldn’t she. […] You don’t think the fish just die when it gets to be winter, do you?” He then sped off.
POST #1: QUESTION #3 (continued)
ReplyDeleteAgain, the theme of staying the same and changing come into play. Because of Allie’s death, Holden is terrified and stubbornly opposes change and the idea of disappearance. Although the duck migrate south every winter, they also return every spring, proving that not all changes are negative or permanent. Holden is represented by the ducks, because he is being forced to move and fend for himself; however he would rather be the fish who get to stay where they are while being provided with what they need by Mother Nature. The pond itself represents a transition (“partly frozen and partly not frozen”.) When a pond freezes, it begins solidifying at the outer edges, and slowly advances towards the center until there is no more room to move, forcing the ducks to flee. In Holden’s case, the pressure of growing up are closing in on Holden, making have to make some important decisions concerning his life when he does not want to. Because of fear of losing his innocence Holden does not want to grow up and experience all the dreaded changes that are associated with maturity. Since Allie died young, Holden feels as if Allie was robbed of his innocence and wants to hold on to his own innocence as long as he could, even if it means remaining child. The fact that ice is mentioned is also symbolic because it shows how not only the pond is frozen, but also that Holden is frozen in a redundant cycle where he is kicked out from one school to another. Another thing associated with ice is that Holden mentions that his mother bought him the wrong type of skates. “[…] I wanted racing skates and she bought me hockey; […]”, meaning his mother wasn’t able to provide him with tools to survive in the cruel world. Throughout the novel, Holden’s parents are often in their own bubbles, and haven’t given Holden any emotional support.
In the end, however, Holden contemplates choosing a more ‘nobler’ path than that of the ducks, which is to adapt or change his environment rather than fleeing it. It represents Holden’s coming of age moments because Holden is maturing and realizing that instead of running away from his troubles, he should man up and get ready to tackle whatever life throws at him, because in the end, that’s what growing up is all about.
- Faria
POST #1 Question #3
ReplyDeleteDucks?! What about the fishes!
When Holden gets into the cab, he starts a conversation with the cab driver, Horwitz, asking him about the ducks and “where they go in the wintertime…” Holden wonders if they simply fly off or if someone comes with a truck and takes them away. Horwitz simply retorts how he would know such a thing, but later replies that the fish stay in the same place. One might say that this conversation is irrelevant to the inner turmoil in Holden, and that Holden’s initial question is a sign of a mental disorder such as ADD. However, in every book there are hidden meanings within them, to one the ducks and fish might mean nothing. To another, one may find hidden messages such as a cyclical nature of change, fear of change and enduring change.
The Ducks in the pound signify the cyclical nature of change. Every winter, they leave and disappear from the lake, but every spring they return. Holden is terrified by the idea of change and disappearance, the death of his brother Allie showed him how fragile life is. The Ducks give Holden a sense of comfort that change is not permanent, but cyclical. But this puts Holden in a precarious situation, if his concept of change is cyclical, than in a way he is trapped in an endless loop, unable to break free of this cycle, unable to move forward. In this way, Holden has no future, when Old Spencer asks Holden whether or not he cares about his future, Holden replies “Sure. Sure I do…But not too much I guess…” but this may be exactly what Holden wishes for, in this cyclical nature of change, where there is no moving forward, there is no growing up. Holden does not want to join the adult world of phoniness he despises so, but wants to remain in the innocent “rye field” of childhood. The physical state of the lake also represents Holden’s current situation, the lake is frozen, just like Holden is frozen between childhood and Adulthood.
The departure of the Ducks also represents one of the fundamental messages of the book, the fear of growing up, and therefore, a fear of change. Every winter the ducks depart from the lake, unable to endure the hardships of the winter. This departure represents Holden’s struggle throughout the entire book. The Wintertime represents change itself, when this change arrives in the lake, the ducks, unable to cope with this change, flee for refuge. Holden is like the ducks. In Pencey Prep, Holden memories of Jane and Allie are trampled by Stradlater. Stradlater, in a way, ruins Holden’s image of Jane by the implied event that the two had sexual intercourse and criticizes Holden’s very personal paper on Allie’s glove. After his fight with Stradlater, Holden leaves Pencey, trying to find his refuge somewhere else, not knowing the torment, his loneliness, his within himself. At the end of the book, Holden once again tries to leave, telling Phoebe he would “hitchhike out west this afternoon…” In this way Holden is once again trying to flee from his problems, again and again, like the ducks that, every winter, flee somewhere else.
The Fish in the lake also represent an important aspect in the book; they represent in a way the process of growing up. When Holden says that the fish are different compared to the ducks, Horwitz says “It’s tougher for the fish, the winter and all, than it is for the ducks…” This shows the contrast between the ducks and the fish. The ducks flee when winter arrives, while the fish, endure the winter. The fish are the ones who endure change. In this way they signify growing up, Holden is afraid of growing up, so he tries to flee from his problems, the fish, everyone else, they deal with the pain of growing up, they endure it. When change arrives for the fish they do not flee, they do not cower, they simply survive and continue on. Holden continues to run away from his problems, but he must stand up and face his problems, he must grow up.
ReplyDeleteOne of the most important themes in the painfulness of growing up, Holden is terrified by this, he fears change itself, like how the ducks fear the coming winter. Throughout the book, Holden tries to run away from his problems, not accepting the fact that one must deal with these problems. When Holden is about to leave the cab, Horwitz tells him that “If you was a fish, Mother Nature’d take care of you wouldn’t she…” He implies that there are others that will help him through the hardships, like Phoebe and Mr. Antolini. He says that while change is hard, it will all be better in the end, because “Mother Nature” wouldn’t just let him die. At the end of the book, Holden decides not to leave for the West, he decides to stay, like how the fish stay in their pond.
-Kurt Lo
"Something smells fishy..."
Response #1 to Curtis Lo's post:
ReplyDeleteResponse to Curtis Lo:
There are some other symbolic pieces of evidence showing that Holden appreciates continuity, or lack of change, such as when he is at the museum. He mentions that “the best thing in that museum was that everything always stayed right where it was.” (p.121) After leaving the museum he goes on to state that “certain things should stay the way they are” (p.122) and that “you ought to be able to stick them in one of those big glass cases and just leave them alone” (p.122) which analogically puts into perspective how Holden really feels about change. This is interesting because he admits that he “knows it’s impossible, but it’s too bad anyway” which reveals that he is finally beginning to realize that the unchanging world he would prefer is not and won’t ever be, a reality.
As for the ducks, a similar interpretation which supports Lo’s views on the subject at hand is that Holden may very well see himself as one of those ducks in the pond. Given that he is not the type of person that directly asks others for advice and would rather do it in a roundabout manner, his asking the cab drivers about where the ducks go may indeed represent asking for advice as to where he himself should go to symbolically seek shelter, meaning to avoid change illustrated by winter. This change may represent, among others, growing up and becoming a responsible adult. He’s asking for help because, as mentioned in the previous paragraph, he begins to realize that the world is ever-changing, that perpetuity is impossible, and that ducklings must lose their innocence in order to become ducks.
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ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletePost #3, Question #3.
ReplyDeleteThe symbolism of the ducks in the pond can be interpreted in an endless amount of different ways. I viewed it as Holden perceiving the ducks as himself. His question consists of asking where the ducks go when the pond is frozen over during the winter. I immediately deduced that he was indirectly asking "Where should I turn when my entire surrounding consists of cold people who are detached and don't understand me?"
The only reason I would come to such an assumption is due to the fact he insists on finding a satisfying answer on something so random and irrelevant. He views himself as ostracized and alone in society; hence the symbolism of the duck (him) and the frozen pond.(society) Horwitz answers in an aggrevated way, yet somewhat reassures Holden that everything will be alright by making references to how Mother Nature takes care of things. (Mother Nature being a symbolism of destiny)
-Nikki Marcolefas
P.S: Shoot! Once again the tenth and final comment. :S Hope it's still valid!
Response #1 Question #3 (My 4th comment in total)
ReplyDeleteResponse to Nikki.
I agree with Nikki on her interpretation of Holden's curiosity about the frozen pond connects to his personnel problems in life.
I would like to add that ice in the novel is portrayed as a very negative thing by Holden. When Holden is having trouble with something, there always turns out to be ice involved. For an example, when Holden leaves Pencey High and goes to New York, he is in search for somewhere to go, somewhere to make himself feel safe. When he is in the cab he asks the driver “… do you happen to know where they go, the ducks, when it gets all frozen over?” (p. 81) The connection i made with this was that Holden is in trouble since he was kicked out of Pencey and needed somewhere to go, just like the ducks who could no longer live in a frozen pond. Another example would be Holden’s date with Sally in chapter 17 where the go ice skating. Holden says that he and Sally were the “Worst skaters in the whole goddam rink,” (p.129) this shows more trouble Holden is having with ice, but isn’t a very major one. But after ice skating, they went inside to ave a drink, and that’s where the trouble happened. Holden asked Sally to marry him and elope together which enrages Sally and causes an argument between them.
I think Holden relates to the ducks in the frozen pond because they too go through trouble when their pond becomes frozen.
P.S: I hope it’s okay that I posted a comment on this question because there aren’t really 10 comments, some people posted more than once.
Post #3 Question #2
ReplyDeleteDuring the cab ride with Horwitz, Holden mentions how in New York, when someone laughs you can hear it for miles, and how that made you feel so "lonesome and depressed" (p.81). He then says "But finally, after I was riding a while, the cab driver and I sort of struck up a conversation." (p. 81). This could be taken as Holden seeking out companionship whilst being alone in New York, the city which at that moment he describes as "quiet and lonesome" (p.81).
Holden asks Horwitz if the ducks are taken away in a truck, or if they fly south. At a later time Holden says: "But they (the birds) all looked like they were really flying south." (p.121) when he visits the Museum of Natural History, which proves that he is not at all a stranger to the concept of birds traveling south in order to wait out the weather/in search of a suitable environment. Yet why would he ask whether the ducks were taken away in a truck? The "somebody in a truck" that comes to take the duck away could be a personification of Death itself. The ducks are taken away by "somebody in a truck" when their environment can no longer provide for them. This can be also taken as: Death seperated Holden from Allie, who had a weakening body due to leukemia, which could no longer support a life.
The ducks have always been a symbol of perseverance, continuous strength and determination in face of a hostile environment. The ducks prove that not all things are absolute, that no disappearance is forever. Holden has trouble understanding (and even fears) the concept of change because of the death of his brother Allie. Allie's disappearance was absolute, and Holden realizes that he won't be returning like the ducks do.
Horwitz then mentions the fish, who freeze and survive by the use of their pores. The symbolism of the fish is quite complicated. Although they go through the very same winter as the ducks do, the fish stay there and confront the situation head on. However, that is the only choice they have. A fish does not have wings, it cannot fly away to a better pond. It cannot breathe outside of said pond. There is no escape for the fish, no other choice but to simply put up with it. If they DID have wings, or any other means of escaping, they would. I believe that the fish do not symbolize bravado, but are simply helpless, and that helplessness forces them endure something they would much rather not go through. Despite that, they have found a way to ensure their survival.
In the end, I believe that whether Holden decides to 'flee' or 'endure', it is not the product of him growing up and accepting change, and does not speak about his character in any way. The words we use mean everything to describe a situation. 'Fleeing' sounds cowardly and pathetic, yet 'Moving on' sounds noble. Someone who 'endures' sounds like quite the martyr, however someone who is 'helpless' sounds like a pig up for slaughter. In reality, the choice Holden makes could be interpreted in so many ways, without him actually having 'grown up'.
Post #4 Response #2
ReplyDeleteI agree with Rabaya; the ice does represent a certain negative aspect in the novel, but it does not solely stop at that.
When Holden asks Horwitz about the frozen pond, yes, it could indeed be interpreted as the ducks (and himself) not having anywhere to go. The frozen pond could represent an ostracizing society, a cold environment that no longer supports life, it could even represent death. However, there is no need to antagonize the frozen pond. It is a challenge, and it represents (metaphorically for Holden) an adversity that the ducks and Holden have to face. Often, the frozen pond could represent the transition between adulthood and childhood.
On p. 154, when Holden finds the pond in Central Park, he remarks that "it was partly frozen and partly not frozen". At this point in his journey, Holden has come some way from the person he was when he left Pencey Prep. He had met certain characters, had certain conversations that have helped him 'grow'. However, he is still not an adult. He still fears change, and continues to have a deep-rooted hatred for 'phonies'. At the end of the book, however, Holden says that he "sort of misses everyone he told about", meaning he doesn't dislike everyone, and no longer sees them as phonies. Somewhere in between where he was when he left Pencey and where he will be at the end of the book, Holden searches for the ducks at the "partly frozen and partly not frozen" pond at Central Park.
Response#1 Question#3
ReplyDeleteI agree with Nikki’s interpretation of the quote, because Holden always detests change in life. There are many examples of this throughout the novel, but an important one would be when he states how he likes museums. His reason, was for the fact that museums don’t change, and they remain the same over years. Also, he wants to be the Catcher in the Rye and save children from changing, growing up and becoming an adult. ’I mean if they’re running and they don’t look where they’re going I have to come out from somewhere and catch them. That’s all I‘d do all day. I’d just be the catcher in the rye and all...’ (p.173). Since he doesn’t like the changes in life and in the people around him, I agree that this quotes may relate to this.
Response #2 to Faria's post
ReplyDeleteFaria brings up a good point when seh says,"The fact that ice is mentioned is also symbolic because it shows how not only the pond is frozen, but also that Holden is frozen in a redundant cycle where he is kicked out from one school to another." It is quite true that Holden is going through a repetitive cycle. Also the fact that he cannot accept change is brought up through the frozen pond when she explain how a pond starts to freeze from the outside and then goes towards the center. She relates this to the pressure on Holden of having to grow up. To summarize it, Holden has difficulty accepting new things and at some points he has gone into a repetitive cycle ( being kicked out one school after another) which Faria explained thoroughly.
Response #1 to Patricia’s Post Question 3
ReplyDeleteI agree with Patricia that the ducks in the pond signify change, and how it is related to Holden because like the ducks every winter, he is going through a period of change. Holden is afraid of growing, and afraid of change. I think Patricia made a good point by saying how Holden wants to know how the ducks can make such a transition so easily, and how he wishes someone would come in a truck and take him away into adulthood without compromising all they hold dear.
Patricia’s interpretation of the first cab driver is noteworthy, how he may have not transitioned to adult hood as easily as the ducks. Maybe the cab driver had made mistakes when he was the same age as Holden, mistakes he regrets.Patricia’s explanation of Horwitz’s words concerning the fish in the pond also has valid points, especially how Holden has to absorb the good and the bad like the fish absorb nutrients. Perhaps Holden has to “absorb” the advice from others, like Mr. Spencer or Mr. Antolini.
Overall I support Patricia’s ideas and I believe she did an amazing job in this post.
- Kurt Lo
RESPONSE #2, QUESTION #3 TO GALATEA'S POST
ReplyDeleteI completely agree with everything that Galatea had to say about this topic. Holden's obsession with the ducks and where they go in the winter does represent his fear of change and the unknown. Also, this feeling of his demonstrates the fact that in some respects, he is extremely immature.
Holden wondering what the ducks do when it gets cold can also be related to his fascination with the museum. At first, Holden loves the museum because it does not change.Once he realizes that things may no longer be the same way inside as he remembers them being, Holden immediately changes his mind and refuses to enter the museum. Once again, these two symbolize Holden fearing change, which, like Galatea mentioned, is one of the main themes in this novel.
Though Holden's fear of change is rather immature, I do understand where he is coming from. Transitioning through different stages of our lives is extremely difficult because you never know what is going to happen to you next. There are no guarantees in life, but Holden must realize that whatever he goes through, he, like the ducks, is both capable and prepared to adapt to what is happening to him.